13:31:10 And then throw it over to the panelists and the moderator to get us started.
13:31:19 Thanks everyone for, for coming, coming out this afternoon.
13:31:24 Okay. Thank you so much, Max.
13:31:28 My name is Lynn taken time, and I will be moderating the session.
13:31:33 So first of all, I'd like to thank the Crowley company for sponsoring this session, and making this virtual conference possible as a manufacturer scanner distributor and digitization services provider, the Crowley company has served public and private
13:31:48 archives for over 40 years, and provides digitization solutions for all collection types and unique needs.
13:31:56 Visit www dot the Crowley company. com to learn more on their complete range of solutions, couple of housekeeping items. We will be using the live transcript for this session for accessibility purposes.
13:32:13 If you would like to hide the subtitles simply click the live transcription button at the bottom of your application, and then select hide subtitle.
13:32:22 And if your zoom application is not maximized you may need to click on the three dots, more icon to turn off the subtitles.
13:32:31 And finally, please use the q amp a feature at the bottom of your screen to pose questions to the panel.
13:32:38 I will then relay those questions to the panelists to close out this session.
13:32:45 Alright so with that said, I want to welcome everyone again to the hear her voice, collaborating to share a century of women's activism session.
13:33:06 My name is Lindsay van time I meet in her own right project manager, and I will be serving, both as moderator and as a panelist today in the session we'll hear from three contributors to the Philadelphia area consortium of Special Collections libraries
13:33:11 pack school project in her own right, which showcases the stories of women working to expand their rights in the century leading up to the passage of the 19th amendment project pi a project manager and a project contributor will eat share their perspectives
13:33:28 on the challenges and opportunities of working on a large scale, long term grant funded project, and share their top tips for collaborative success.
13:33:38 First we'll hear from one of the project p eyes Marjorie in slide.
13:33:43 Marjorie has been director of the special collections at Temple University Libraries, since 2010.
13:33:49 She was previously Deputy Executive Director of the Presbyterian Church, USA in Philadelphia, and before that college archivist and coordinator of special collections at Smith College Libraries.
13:34:02 She's a graduate of Dickinson college with a BA in history in German literature and holds a Master of Arts in history, and a Master of Science in library science with an archival administration emphasis from Case Western Reserve University.
13:34:17 She is currently president of the Society of American archivists Foundation Board and a fellow of the society.
13:34:31 In that role I am based at the Historical Society of Pennsylvania.
13:34:36 I hold a PhD in English and comparative literature from Columbia University, and an MA in English, and a BA in Spanish and anthropology, both of those from the University of Virginia.
13:34:49 I was previously a council on Library and Information Services postdoctoral fellow at the kiss like center for special collections at the University of Pennsylvania.
13:34:59 And finally, we'll hear from Jessica Clark, as a contributing member of the project.
13:35:05 Jessica is an archivist at the barber Bates center. I'm sorry is the archivist at the Barbara Bates Center for the Study of the history of Nursing at the University of Pennsylvania.
13:35:16 She has been at the center in various roles since 2012.
13:35:20 She received her BA in history from the University of Pittsburgh and ma from Temple University, also in history, focusing on archives and public history.
13:35:31 So without further ado, I will now turn it over to Marjorie.
13:35:41 We encourage you to tweet and do other social media things.
13:35:46 And to click around our site.
13:35:52 And I'll be presenting my perspective, as one of the principal investigators of
13:36:01 Philadelphia area consortium of Special Collections libraries, is a member consortium currently with 34 libraries and archives, and about six years ago, pack school was casting about for some new collaborative projects for the members of pack schools
13:36:23 track record of multi institutional projects has been consistently attractive the funders, and we tend to try to pursue multiple angles whenever we can.
13:36:36 Representatives from several member libraries, all interested in women's history gathered a few times to brainstorm and Margaret Graham of the Drexel University College of Medicine legacy center.
13:36:53 Notice noted that the hundredth anniversary of women, or as we now say white women getting the vote in 2020 was coming up. So the project coalesced around digitizing and aggregating primary sources to build resources about that topic.
13:37:06 We gathered a team of CO p eyes and staff of participating institutions and began work.
13:37:16 This is how we frame, the project that we were digitizing content, documenting women working for their own and others rights, between 1820 and 1920, leading up to the passage of the 19th amendment that date range was was both aspirational and practical
13:37:34 this content was seriously underexposed. It was well represented in the repositories in the Philadelphia region. And what's also in the public domain.
13:37:49 If you believe that all politics are local, the Philadelphia area content made sense. And we also focused on the fact that women's suffrage to not to spring up, independent of all other forms of women's activism in the early 1900s, but that was the result
13:38:08 of over a century of women working towards their rights.
13:38:27 Haskell colleague and I had been talking to an NIH program officer about options for practical, and we pitched a two page proposal for a Foundation's grant, which we received. That was the first of five grants that have supported the project, the NIH foundations grant to
13:38:32 grant to survey collections, identify a small portion to digitize create collection descriptions and build a proof of concept website.
13:38:41 That was succeeded by a clear hidden collections digitization grant to build the digitized corpus to smaller grants from the new century trust which is now the gender equity fund and the Delmas Foundation, which supplied bridge and additional technical
13:38:59 support. And now finally an NIH implementation grant, which were, we will finish by the end of this year.
13:39:26 We sincerely thank our granting agencies for the over $900,000 in funds, supported by work.
13:39:17 Some of the components of the project as it evolved include the list here, many moving parts, Neh, and some extent clear really wanted advisory board so we gathered women's history scholars and users from all over the country, the surveyor who did the
13:39:39 initial work in multiple repositories in the region, looked at over 50 collections, she identified themes and perspective items for digitization wrote contextualize and essays and began to build a collection guide.
13:39:59 We hired new mind labs to help us start building the website and working on aggregation.
13:40:07 We gathered context, as well as content.
13:40:12 We've had user testing events, although we need to do more.
13:40:16 We've had a lot of metadata enhancement events to make the metadata even more beautiful. And I'll be talking in a bit about our hidden voices aspect.
13:40:29 And you'll learn about that.
13:40:32 Some of the results of the grants are detailed here.
13:40:40 I hesitate to give you a number of digitized items, but because it's increasing every day.
13:40:47 We're going to have a significant amount by the end of the project.
13:40:51 We have collection guides, both for material that has been digitized, and for material that we haven't been able to digitize.
13:41:02 I'm Lindsay and others have worked to use info vis to create a subject guide visualization, you can see an example of it on the slide.
13:41:14 We are doing some work, what I'm calling network prosopagnosia, which is identifying how women related to each other and around what topics, and some of that's being done in Palladio.
13:41:30 Um, as I said, we have contextualize essays and other content variety of us have written bought blog posts, and we're building that out as we go.
13:41:42 One of our ideals was to provide access to data. The actual metadata and enable users to manipulate that so we provide API s access and data sets.
13:41:58 And we're also involved in other aggregation opportunities for licensure libraries long 19th and the Digital Public Library of America.
13:42:10 And some of you may have attended our symposium last month where we've gathered students and scholars have to talk about a lot of our content and other relevant content across the country.
13:42:25 I encourage you to visit our new website, which we, We love and find the bugs, let us know.
13:42:33 One of the aspects of the website are, As I mentioned contextual ization.
13:42:40 So, there are exhibits blog posts essays, all that kind of content to service entry point for users. We're also working with undergraduate, graduate education majors to build primary source sets and lesson plans that will also help promote use.
13:43:05 So let me talk a little bit first about some of the challenges.
13:43:10 You may have figured out some of those already, and this comes from my perspective as a poi across the entire course of the projects.
13:43:20 The first is working with multiple institutions.
13:43:24 The phrase cat herding has been used probably too much but there have been over 20 different participating institutions. And as you can imagine that requires understanding and reconciliation of different practices, and a recognition of varying levels
13:43:39 of expertise and enthusiasm.
13:43:43 One of our recently discovered challenges is that some of the participating staff have had are participating institutions have had staff transitions.
13:43:57 Most notably, some new staff word aware of the NIH commitments that their predecessors made.
13:44:03 And so we are arrival came as somewhat of a surprise.
13:44:10 Um, The next challenge area is financial management for each grant, we needed to find a fiscal agent or a fiscal sponsor. And over the course of the grant, we've used the Historical Society of Pennsylvania twice temple Swarthmore College and pack school
13:44:29 itself.
13:44:31 We needed to understand the various conditions of each grant
13:44:38 In indirect costs or some places call them facilities and administrative costs can be very significant at some institutions. So we're grateful to the Historical Society for posting those, but clear doesn't allow for those so we were able to have that
13:44:57 hosted at Temple.
13:44:59 That's another piece of the puzzle to look at the grant and figure out who might be willing to provide the financial management.
13:45:09 We also discovered that some institutions have couldn't receive reimbursement.
13:45:17 The way we had written it into the grant.
13:45:22 So we did leave a little bit of money on the table at one point, um, which was sad, because those institutions that done the work but could only be reimbursed for part of it.
13:45:37 So, a learning experience for all of us.
13:45:40 We've also faced over the course of this rather extended and multiply grant projects. Some projects staffing and transitions.
13:45:51 At one point, the NIH and clear grants overlap so we needed to project staff members, And then we had a project staff departure, and had to replace that person in middle grant and we're very grateful to Lindsay for stepping in and she'll talk a little
13:46:11 bit more about the practicalities of that in a bit.
13:46:17 I probably don't need to say much about how coven has impacted work.
13:46:22 We recently applied and received a no cost extension from NIH because it was clear that because staff of the participating institutions couldn't get into their collections and digitization has been impacted if it was being done in house and variety of
13:46:42 of other reasons we needed to extend the period of grant of the grant and any he was very gracious about that.
13:46:50 And one of the both joys and challenges has been identifying the collections.
13:47:12 So, we needed to poke around for that.
13:47:16 And even more, we determined that we needed to do what we've been calling the hidden voices initiative.
13:47:26 Our challenge has been to ensure the presence of under documented women in the project.
13:47:33 We had a lot of white women a lot of Quaker women. Um, but the non, the, the underrepresented racial ethnic disabled, other voices were not coming through.
13:47:52 They were not represented necessarily in traditional documentary sources, and it became clear to us as we began to write the final NIH grant that we needed to figure out how to to tap into some of some of those sources optimistically we thought that we
13:48:16 could do a lot of the legwork and write very firm firmly identified sources into the NIH grant, and then just pursue them as a part of the grant, but it became clear after multiple conversations and research and investigation that that wasn't going to
13:48:35 be possible. So the hidden voices component of the current grant gives us the leeway to do the research, have the conversations, possibly digitize some content.
13:48:51 Just definitely include collection descriptions, even if we can't get content digitized, and the four institutions represented on this slide are the ones that we're currently actively working with, it still means that we haven't tapped into institutions
13:49:14 like churches and other organizations that don't have.
13:49:20 For more staffing or former archives.
13:49:24 So that, or even tapped into material that's still in the hands of individuals.
13:49:32 So that's, that's a challenge for the next grant or whenever that may happen.
13:49:39 This is also a impacted by coded. Because the smaller institutions are lightly staffed begin with. When covert hit, they've closed entirely.
13:49:56 We had originally planned to have temple and Drexel do digitization for the small institutions and our staffing situations have changed because of coded.
13:50:10 So we're looking at vendors and other options.
13:50:13 So
13:50:17 we're, we're happy about where we've gotten with this but know that there's more work to be done.
13:50:25 So some more positives about the project. I'm one of the hallmarks of pack schools projects is our belief that are rising tide lifts all boats.
13:50:38 We really want the largest member institutions to support the small institutions, and to write collaborative brands that include as many institutions as possible.
13:50:57 This enables us to
13:51:02 to leverage those small institutions assets to get the money for digitization to get them trained in metadata and other standards to help them implement dams and to provide professional development for their staff, so that they can grow.
13:51:25 Generally professional development is a significant part of what we try to do in pack school and in these projects, and I'd like to think that our project staff.
13:51:37 The two graduate students who we hired, and the staff of participating institutions have all grown through project meetings through exposure to standards through the metadata enhancement events, and in other ways I hope to hear more about from them.
13:51:57 Um, we, we really firmly believe that our collaborative approach is a strength, and we, we, I wouldn't say necessarily that it's a women centered concept but that might not hurt, of all of our project stuff volunteered and followed through if there were
13:52:23 work pressures def colleagues picked up the slack.
13:52:29 And I think it's a it's a testament to, to our collaborative spirit that we've worked through all this.
13:52:39 And it's very exciting. The opportunities have been enormous to see how we've been building cross collection connections.
13:52:50 We heard at the symposium last month, about scholars who suddenly discovered content through the aggregator through in her own right, that measurably enhance their research, research and and their particular projects.
13:53:09 And that is definitely what we want to do.
13:53:14 Unless we forget how wonderful, some of those collections are. So take a little side trip to give you an idea about what what we've been working on.
13:53:26 This is the active TV a hill Association Helen parish was one of their home visitors and she kept a diary.
13:53:32 She's an example of our warts and all approach because she was very firmly convinced that the women she was helping should should do things her way, or would not receive that help so interesting perspective.
13:53:52 We have luminaries such as the Krishna Mott of some of the big names in women's history.
13:54:00 But we also have things like a friendship albums. We were exposing several from the library company of Philadelphia.
13:54:20 These are notable because they're, they were created by African American women in the, in the city, and reflect their interactions with each other, and which was their greater communities, and we discovered a fourth volume down at Howard University and
13:54:27 will be getting that digitize to complete the entire collection.
13:54:36 And then somewhat unusually, and I hope you'll hear a little bit from Genesis apart the buses, we digitize student files from the Mercy Hospital and Frederick Douglass hospital.
13:54:52 Nurses training schools, and this content is really extraordinarily wonderful will will find scholars to to use it in great ways.
13:55:06 So finally we promise you tips for large scale long term grant funded projects.
13:55:19 I think our longevity can be attributed to many of these steps, some of which feel awfully obvious at this point and you may see where I've been heading.
13:55:25 And I think one of the biggest things that you need to remember is to remain flexible.
13:55:35 It's a long time frame, it's many institutions that many different places in their institutional lives. So sometimes you just have to go with the flow and trust that things will work out or.
13:55:49 or understand that sometimes things won't work out.
13:55:54 As you heard earlier.
13:55:57 We're a big supporter of collaborative work and teams. I think we all know that sometimes working as in teams takes longer, but ultimately there's a better product.
13:56:11 So we worked towards a consensus, and the best product possible.
13:56:18 It's also a great idea to put together teams with various skill sets so even though we had some transition in our project management and P eyes.
13:56:31 We always seem to find someone who had good tech and web development skills, some people who are better at budgets and report writing and all those skills came together.
13:56:43 Because the team had self awareness of their strengths, and also because they took responsibility for the areas where they could best contribute.
13:56:53 And as I said earlier it enabled us to spread out the workload, and to lift each other up when real job or family or coded or whatever press pressures intervened.
13:57:07 I think another blinding flash of the obvious is the importance of communication, and we did.
13:57:15 I think we could have done a better job on this but but we tried.
13:57:20 We held participant meetings where we gathered a participant institutions, either a well initially together, physically and then virtually to do kickoffs to expose them to our standards and guidelines to answer questions to offer updates.
13:57:43 We send out regular emails.
13:57:47 A lot of our project content. The standards and guidelines are on the website so that's accessible.
13:57:55 We have one on one meetings with institutions and individuals.
13:58:02 I do think we prior to some of the grants, we could have done more interaction with the participating institutions to try to elicit better budget and frame count information.
13:58:18 So that's a learning that we will carry forward.
13:58:23 I'm documentation is huge.
13:58:28 We maintain a log, where we document.
13:58:35 Updates decisions, all that kind of content.
13:58:39 It helps us build the content for future proposals, or interim and final reports, and for the white papers that we have obligated ourselves to write.
13:58:53 And it's been really invaluable.
13:58:56 It's a shared activity during our regular project team meetings every Thursday morning.
13:59:05 We take those minutes and various of us go in to the shared google doc and build, build out the blog, and all the content that we need.
13:59:18 All of this has been so much easier because of technology.
13:59:23 Initially we had project team meetings in person but.
13:59:28 And then we segue to having in person meetings only when we were talking about large complicated topics, and now it's all zoom all the time.
13:59:40 But that technology really has enabled us to share and be much more efficient, And it's everything from joint writing of proposals to tracking the number of friends we've digitized.
13:59:56 And then I want to say a little bit about knowing your funders. And by that, I mean, several things, first to know what funding sources are out there, what they're interested in funding, whether they would support.
14:00:13 Your, your proposal. So we've done work on that.
14:00:17 Also tracking things like deadlines.
14:00:21 But then also knowing the project.
14:00:24 The program officers themselves to build relationships with them to feel them out when you have a project in mind.
14:00:35 And to be able to talk through and get their advice on on how to craft a better proposal. So we've been extremely fortunate to have some very supportive clear in any H program officers and we're grateful for that.
14:00:52 And lastly I wanted to talk a little bit about sustainability.
14:00:56 And this is archival sustainability.
14:01:01 So, we have all these small repositories who are participating in the project and Expo has traditionally been fairly decentralized when it came to this kind of thing.
14:01:15 So we needed to plan ahead and think about how both the digitized materials and metadata, but also the website that aggregated that content would be sustained over time.
14:01:29 Sometimes, granting agencies require that it be written into your proposal. And it is really important to get buy in from all the participants so that they understand that one of their obligations, is to work with us to make sure their content lives on.
14:01:49 Um, we have pretty much decided that institutions, the institutions who are participating, their own dams are the preservation Master, that can be content dm Island Dora power library Internet Archive.
14:02:08 Whatever folks are using.
14:02:11 And we're just the aggregator on the site.
14:02:15 We've worked with small repositories and you'll hear more from Lindsay about that, to help them set up some kind of dams or dams like situations so that they can participate in the project for the clear grant, we
14:02:35 did.
14:02:38 We signed up with Lehigh University to service the dark archives for the project. So a lot of that content is in dark storage up at Lehigh in case something awful happens.
14:02:51 And we have been one of I think the contributing factors to cause pack school to think more about sustainability of practical projects in the future, and we're looking forward to hearing how that might help sustain preserve and, and grow the in her own
14:03:12 right, site.
14:03:15 So, as you saw at the beginning, there's a lot of content on the in her own right.org site. We encourage you to visit it. We encourage you to content, contact us with questions or ask questions at the end of the session.
14:03:31 And now I'll hand the zoo over to our project managers, Lindsay van de.
14:03:45 Thank you. Marjorie.
14:03:55 Alright.
14:03:58 So, um, I will tell you a little bit about mercury mentioned a little bit about how I came to the project.
14:04:07 I'll tell you a little bit about that and about my role.
14:04:11 And, and then I'll focus in on some of the opportunities and challenges in working with this kind of project.
14:04:19 So I came to the interim right project.
14:04:26 In 2018, to help wrap up the clear grant phase.
14:04:31 Then I rejoined the project in 2020, and I'm now working with the team to wrap up the NIH grant phase. So I've worked on two different grants, a total of 21 institutions, plus outreach to for additional institutions as part of our hidden voices initiative
14:04:51 which I'll discuss a little bit later.
14:05:03 One moment.
14:05:04 Okay.
14:05:06 So as project manager I was responsible for working with these institutions listed to support the completion of their digitization and metadata creation, and then to manage the ingest processing and quality control of digitized images and metadata into
14:05:23 the right database.
14:05:27 As part of this process I coordinated meta meta data aggregation by OAIPMH harvesting with our technical vendor.
14:05:34 So that was my core responsibility but I also worked on several other initiatives.
14:05:39 I developed and implemented new workflows for quality control and made metadata enhancement for our at this point over 12,000 aggregated meta data records.
14:05:52 I coordinated a crowdsource meta data enhancement event. And I've worked extensively with the in her data set to develop digital scholarship applications for our data.
14:06:04 Since 2020 I've also managed the hidden voices initiative by developing partnerships with five additional non technical institutions with the end goal of describing and digitizing materials related to underrepresented communities.
14:06:21 So today I'll focus on the challenges and opportunities I encountered in two main areas of my work with in her own right.
14:06:29 the gamut, in terms of institutional size staff capacity dams platforms and metadata standards and practices.
14:06:45 And second, I'll discuss my experience conducting outreach and developing partnerships with for small institutions as part of our hidden voices initiative.
14:06:58 So as mercury mentioned, the in her own right project aggregates metadata from many different Philadelphia area institutions, primarily via LAIPMH harvesting, but in cases where that is not supported by a manual ingest by CSP.
14:07:17 So, the metadata schema and the ingestion workflow is therefore designed for basic interoperability between institutional records and the project records available through the interim rate portal.
14:07:30 Well there's base level compliance with global standards in required fields. There's also significant variation in cataloging practices and standards across the data set, because each institution, ultimately follows its own conventions and protocols and
14:07:44 the institutional records are ultimately created considered authoritative.
14:07:54 So the final product of this rather intricate workflow is be in her own right, database, which has to this point aggregated a total of over 12,000 Records in Dublin Core compliant XML.
14:08:10 And they're available not only through this beautiful front end search interface, but also for bulk download via API.
14:08:19 So records can be searched by keyword in the standard search bar at the top, or could be refined by the facets on the left side of the page.
14:08:31 They can also be be sorted by different categories.
14:08:39 And, in addition to a keyword search, including that by field by specific field.
14:08:49 There is also for many records a full text, text transcription on the back end, that is indexed and providing enhanced keyword search ability.
14:09:06 So here's an example of in her own right, record, which provides users with the edited a description about the item, as well as a one a single representative image.
14:09:23 And I'll say a little bit more about why there's just one representative image.
14:09:30 So, the project philosophy is from the beginning. The goal was not just to create a siloed resource, you know with planned obsolescence.
14:09:45 But to think about long term sustainability.
14:09:49 So, each record in our database is drawn from the institution's own record, and each record also links back out to the full item in the institutional dams.
14:10:08 So, if users want to see all of the images documented in an item, they need to follow the view fault item link from the intern right record to go out to the, the institutional record.
14:10:24 So, this workflow of the institution creating, creating a record that's compliant within her own right standards that record than being ingested into the right database, and the in her own right database then linking back out to the institutional record
14:10:44 record that has all been enabled by very detailed metadata guidelines that were carefully developed by an extensive committee of experts over several years and you can see the list of the many contributors to this document on the title page on the left,
14:11:02 and get a sense of the contents through the table of contents on the right. So you can see that there is core metadata required fields and enhance metadata recommended fields.
14:11:17 So, this schema was designed for flexibility and inclusive it for ensuring a minimum standard of metadata via via the required fields, but also encouraging institutions to enhance.
14:11:36 It also provided a lot of flexibility in.
14:11:41 In, even the, the scale of the record some participants apply description at the folder level others at the item level.
14:11:51 So, just to, to show you a little bit bigger so you can see it a little bit better, the required fields include title date creator rights identifier language of subject, and then the recommended fields, get into some more enhanced in her hands kind of
14:12:14 meta data that that facilitate better access.
14:12:22 And I'll show you.
14:12:24 Just side by side.
14:12:28 The the extent of variation that there can be within this shared framework in in the database.
14:12:36 So, on the one hand, you could have a you know a very, very basic record with, with the required fields, which is perfectly compliant with our schema.
14:12:50 And on the other hand, you might have a you know a very detailed record item level description of a letter with with detailed description, and this also has a full text transcription that you can't see but that is on the back end, provide enhanced keyword
14:13:10 search ability.
14:13:15 So, there is this is wonderful in terms of inclusive it.
14:13:22 You know the bar to entry was deliberately made, you know, as, as basic as possible so that participation.
14:13:31 Could Happen from from multiple different kinds of institutions with different infrastructures and different, different capacities.
14:13:40 It does though, raise some tension between, between wanting to include as many materials as possible. And,
14:13:56 And
14:14:00 not worrying too much about kind of deferring to institutional practices to do so, and wanting to improve access through standardization, including opportunities for like data.
14:14:14 And on that note I will say that the, you know, local practices were really respected so we we did do some QC throughout and then also.
14:14:28 More recently, some large scale batch QC to identify metadata issues across fields across the whole data set, including things like typos content errors standardization and formatting issues not authorized forms of names and heady skin required fields.
14:14:45 So where there were corrections you know we did forward those to the partner institutions.
14:14:52 And they were expected to make those corrections and readjust them into their system for re harvest. And we also did make some recommendations for standardization and format change changes, if possible, but ultimately local practices were respected.
14:15:11 And just just another example of the kind of variation that might produce in terms of local practices so some institutions.
14:15:26 Heading included geographic terms down to the intersection and down to the street level or coordinate coordinates, while others just included, you know a single a single place name.
14:15:39 So a lot of variation.
14:15:44 So, um, well, again, the the meta data schema has worked beautifully in allowing the collections of 21 different institutions to be brought together, to be accessible as a whole to explore connections and see things against one another.
14:16:07 At the same time, that can pose some challenges.
14:16:12 And so I'll take subject metadata, as an example.
14:16:17 So, the team, the subject, excuse me, the metadata guidelines.
14:16:27 Did from the outset, recognize that subject headings, could be an area of rather extreme variation, just depending on catalog or, you know, practices, institutional practices content, etc.
14:16:44 So, the subject guide from the beginning, did encourage each partner to number one.
14:16:55 Check the check the current corpus of records already in the database to get a sense of what kinds of subjects were currently in use.
14:17:08 Also to check a list of authorized subject headings that the team had created during the foundation stage of the grant to take those as a beta, sis to be coming from kind of a shared a shared basis for subject headings, and then also to search out authorized
14:17:33 authorized had beans and create local headings, if, if necessary.
14:17:42 So that, you know, that undoubtedly did provide some consistency across records. Nevertheless, as expected, there is a great deal of variation across across subjects even once.
14:18:01 Once our kind of QC and corrections and, and suggestions had been taken into account.
14:18:08 So on the left you can see that even even something as minor as one institution, you know uses an M dash and another uses, you know the double dash to to do the subject heading
14:18:31 in the underlying data, of course, those will be to recognize it's two different things and that would not facet.
14:18:39 Now we are our platform is built on black light.
14:18:45 And we, you know, is a fairly simple fix to rather than, since we're not asking institutions to make changes to their practices we want to respect what's coming in.
14:18:56 So we simply developed workarounds on the back end with our technical vendor, did some indexing tweaks in black light to resolve that.
14:19:08 And you can see that, you know, those, those two, two different technically different subject headings you know have been merged through our little tweaks on the back end.
14:19:20 But the fact remains that have around 3800 total subject headings in her own right database currently over half only appear once.
14:19:38 So, the team, fought a lot about how, how could we develop some other workarounds for this so we are definitely respecting and local practices.
14:19:52 And so we and we also are very clear that we are not ever going to put to make changes or put additions into our in her own right database records that are not in the original record for sustainability purposes.
14:20:10 So how can we improve improve access to the records for our users, while not doing anything to change the underlying metadata.
14:20:23 And so been kind of beautiful solution that the team came up with was to look at the look at the subjects that we had that had come in and
14:20:39 and plan a metadata enhancement event that invited folks to come in and do some hand.
14:20:49 Kind of hand aggregation of related subject terms, under some broad themes that we wanted to emphasize that we want users to be able to explore.
14:21:01 So we invited kind of crowdsource some of that work clustered some, some of the subjects that we thought were most important to try to, to try to draw in, you know, all the related terms that might not be immediately apparent but the different institutions
14:21:20 had used.
14:21:24 And then we hold a data jam event also crowd sourced, in which those subjects terms and groupings were used to create an interactive subject visualization which you can see on the right, which itself, lead back out to records themselves.
14:21:44 So, here we found another way to allow users to, you know, to see things to see connections.
14:21:55 Outside of the confines of a, an interface dependent on the underlying metadata.
14:22:07 So, um, the, that becomes a little trickier. When you are thinking about using the data at scale for digital scholarship applications. So as I mentioned, one of the things that I could I contributed to the project was working with the data, and identifying
14:22:28 future digital humanities applications for the data set, and then doing some work to, to create the kind of data that would be needed to produce those as Marjorie mentioned we have been thinking for a long time about network visualizations that would
14:22:47 allow users to explore the social networks of women's activism at scale.
14:22:54 So one of the things I worked on in the clear phase and now in an ongoing way, in a dh phase was to create a correspondence data set, correspondence makes up the bulk of our records coming in at about 6000 Records.
14:23:16 And a lot of this correspondence, I realized from from doing QC work with the data you know just spending a lot of time and open refine a lot of these records already had semi structured data in non controlled fields, so you'll see in.
14:23:35 In the, the leftmost field in this spreadsheet that is the title of the letter and you'll see that it includes both an author name and a letter recipient name, but the recipient name is simply, you know, not an unauthorized form.
14:23:53 So I use some.
14:23:56 I used open refine I used regular expressions and some plugins to extract those extract those kinds of free text names.
14:24:11 And then standardize them using a combination of via plugins and comparison against existing in her own right.
14:24:22 Name authorized names.
14:24:27 However, so that that has become the basis for planned presentations at the Keystone dh conference for planned network visualization using GFI that Marjorie and I have been working with a student towards completing.
14:24:51 And that's all very exciting we expected that will ultimately be featured on the website and will be another point of access.
14:24:59 It does raise the thorny question though, we, you know, this what we realized that this was a priority that we wanted to pursue.
14:25:08 And so, essentially, I was performing some enhancement by extracting these names and creating another you know another column.
14:25:20 And we discussed whether there was a way that institutions could readjust contributor names whether they would be interested in doing that.
14:25:30 And those conversations are still ongoing.
14:25:34 But, for, for the purposes of the this particular correspondence dataset we decided that even though we were very dedicated to our records and the institutions records, you know, not having any daylight between them.
14:25:51 Those are always going to be identical, that it's okay to do some enhancements, or some transformation of the data, if we're thinking about it in terms of data sets, and that we could make that enhanced or transformed data available to other dh practitioners
14:26:11 for this kind of work at scale for particular applications.
14:26:18 I'll just mention another, we also have maps mapping visualizations available on the website via black light maps.
14:26:29 And that's another kind of digital application that provided geo referencing for our records.
14:26:38 You can see the, the letter on the left is now has those coordinates on our back end tied to it, it also raises a bit of ambiguity so we've done this year to reference in
14:26:55 will institutions are they interested in getting the benefit of that would they want to reinvest that does their jams have the capacity to do that so we're currently in conversations there.
14:27:09 Same kind of same kind of idea thinking about the slight tension between some of the applications or possibilities we want to enable for our users, and then making sure that that institutions at least have had the benefit of that and are able to, to use
14:27:28 it in their systems, if they would like.
14:27:32 So I will end there and turn it over to Jessica.
14:27:47 Great, thanks Lindsay.
14:28:04 So as I might for my part of the session I will be talking as a participant member.
14:28:10 And I will walk through my efforts in these projects and share my experiences along with some of the challenges that we had face.
14:28:18 Just for a little bit of background about the barber bait center. We are the largest nursing focused archive in the country, and are located at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia.
14:28:29 We have two full time staff members, myself included, and I am the only archivist on staff.
14:28:35 While we are part of a university setting we are quite small. And as we are located within the School of Nursing are siloed from other pen libraries and archives.
14:28:44 We have limited resources for digitizing projects and limited methods for allowing public access to our collections or to gain exposure.
14:28:56 With partnering with Pascoe presented a great opportunity to delve into a large scale digitizing project, and have guidance and expectations and access to expertise on this matter.
14:29:05 As the center of this experience has allowed us to shape our future goals and strategies and to learn from other institutions on how they handle large scale digitizing projects.
14:29:14 This initiative also allowed us to connect our historical nursing collections to a larger regional and national experience, and to have visitors and scholars user content in different methods as Lindsay Lindsay described these women and the collections
14:29:30 now represent more than just nursing history.
14:29:33 The center was invited at an early stage of what was then just the idea of looking for funding around a project for suffrage, when you, when I first think of activism and suffrage I don't immediately think of nursing, but as a collective when it when
14:29:47 possible involved with activism meant, then the opportunity to think of these early nurses, as expressing themselves and educating themselves became its own action and activism and the call for proposals and collections for the grants.
14:30:02 A few of our contenders. I showed on the screen, or the mercy of Douglas hospital School of Nursing collection. It's a Philadelphia institution founded in 1895, and was a traditionally African American training school.
14:30:17 We also had Mary climber, who was a student nurse in Philadelphia in the 1880s. She if you know the Agnew clinic portrait. She's the woman featured in that painting and Chloe concert little fields, who graduated from Philadelphia school in the 1880s,
14:30:39 we also have her career as a private duty nurse in rural Massachusetts in New York. So all three of these collections are very important to the center, and the opportunity to have these digitize was a dream, and what the ability to share these experiences
14:30:48 of black women, private duty nurses and what students went through in a larger scheme was fantastic.
14:30:56 So when past school received the first pilot grant from any age, we were invited to participate. And for this grant we use internal funding to support the project.
14:31:06 We were asked to digitize the relevant materials from mercy Douglas hospital, which included the student records from the then Frederick hospital. From 1895 through 1920.
14:31:18 These African American student records, which told him about 90 images were primarily paper, paper documents was some photographs.
14:31:28 For this project, all scanning and metadata work was done in house with myself and a work study student who was available, and was done with a flatbed scanner, because of the timing and internal center priorities and concerns.
14:31:40 The center wasn't able to explore assistance for housing images or different ways to explore digital content, all images are housed on the local Penn site being an image there.
14:31:51 So we use the metadata spreadsheets one to describe to aggregate data.
14:31:57 And here are some of the records that we had scanned, you can see we have the original application from these students we have the letters of recommendations and what they described prospective applicants to be of good standing of moral compass, things
14:32:11 like that, they described, along with their official transcripts of how they attended and their workload.
14:32:21 For the next sprint, we were part of the clear digitizing grant, we had the materials from Chloe little fields and Mary climber.
14:32:30 And with this grant there was funding to digitize these materials.
14:32:34 Overall, we had scan to diaries from Mary climber, or about 370 images and 24 diaries from Chloe little fields, the sizes of these bound materials ranged from six inches by seven inches to about one and a half by three inches, which was the size that
14:32:51 you could fit into a small pocket book, as you've traveled from patient to patient house.
14:32:57 This project cover digitizing costs which is incredibly helpful for us as we were able to contract out this work.
14:33:05 The majority of the work for this was done through our universities because lack and pen digital pen departments. And those were connections made by passable members.
14:33:15 These connections allowed our scans to be done quicker with a book scanner and with people who are experienced in digitizing bound materials, but more importantly they were housed on a larger pence site, one that can be reached more broadly, and could
14:33:30 be featured in larger sites.
14:33:35 featured in larger sites. And as you can see on these on these slides I just have a couple samples of Mary climber shorthand notes, and her larger lecture notes that were turned in for grades at her school.
14:33:47 And you can see an example of the small size of Chloe, little fields pocket diary, and you can see how challenging it would be to read it as a one and a half by three inch diary.
14:34:00 So scanning them allows easier access to read her work as it is starting to fade,
14:34:08 our center is in many ways still isolated from other archives and libraries but nowhere near how we were five years ago, when we had started this project, and that's all because of the work of Haskell, and in her own right product to you by connecting
14:34:23 with past school our relationships have been fostered and avenues for future to job station projects are there.
14:34:33 Uniquely in that sense, as a small institution. We have done to digitizing projects for one large scale project in two different ways.
14:34:39 We've had to do everything internally, and meet the challenges along the way. And we work with outsiders for scanning and how those methods and means present different challenges from a cost perspective, we've had to use internal cost sharing funds, but
14:34:55 we've also have funds available to us in the challenges with getting those funds.
14:35:01 In my experience with this project. There are numerous challenges we discovered along the way. Some of it we were able to meet and grow, such as making new connections, updating our scanning practices and our metadata practices, but others we haven't
14:35:15 been able to meet such as hosts, our own hosting abilities or partnering with other initiatives such as deal, PA, and other methods, but it has allowed us to start having these conversations and has challenged and change the way the center of us digitizing
14:35:33 efforts.
14:35:35 We now know what the steps are for us and the benchmarks to continue our digitizing practice.
14:35:42 Some tips I have for smaller institutions or for any partnership digitizing projects as Marjorie has touched on with communication.
14:35:52 Having studied communication, whether it's emails or if it's in person meetings.
14:35:58 I found very critical for us, it was a way to make sure that I knew what I was supposed to be doing at any given time, but also to know where the project was overall.
14:36:06 And the progressions are any changes that were being made at a larger scale.
14:36:13 One reminder, I think, is that we forget how complicated it can be from granting institution or institution to institution, particularly for funding as an archivist archivists you know exactly what you're supposed to be doing on their project but when
14:36:38 have to bring in more central figures who don't know what you're working on, it becomes a little bit more of a challenge. And so you should be on top of your communications. As Lindsay had described with the metadata. It was a unique unique situation where we knew what we needed
14:36:45 where we knew what we needed to provide but there was also flexibility for each institution, so interesting to be on top of what different areas were doing and what different rights statements there could be a naming conventions and being on top of what
14:37:01 was being asked for in each different grant.
14:37:02 It was also very helpful to have the documentation centrally located and easy to find and follow.
14:37:09 In many Institute cases I was able to point my work study student to them whenever there was a question or if I needed to consult with or outside contractors I could easily find that.
14:37:21 And even now it's easy to locate and see what I can use in my own practice at the center and build on those abilities.
14:37:35 Another takeaway I have from working on this project, and something to recognize in a partnership is that sometimes it's difficult to say that I can't do something, or I can't guarantee it will be done in a certain way.
14:37:42 Some of that was with enhanced metadata. Some of the things I can access some of it I can't access and I can't guarantee any changes can be made to it.
14:37:53 Or I have transcriptions for diaries, being able to put them online presents a different problem. So being able to say no to certain things.
14:38:01 Was it a fun challenge but it's still a challenge.
14:38:06 Another tip I have is to be realistic about staff time. We're probably all reminded of this but it's really important to balance out your own daily needs what the grant project needs for the NIH grant I had a work study student I was able to pull into
14:38:20 on this. For the clear grant I did not have a work study student as an extra set of hands. So if the connection with killer cannot work out. I would have been the sole responsibility for it, in which case I would have had to learn how to scan books inbound
14:38:35 materials very quickly.
14:38:38 And because of how things communicate. As mentioned earlier, it took a little longer than I or Pascal had envisioned to start the scanning project with his lack.
14:38:47 And it just added a little bit of stress, I don't think either of us expected.
14:38:52 Another tip I have is to be ready to talk internally and externally about expectations, and what has held you back from scanning, or following best standard practices is are there solutions that you can come up with or is that something that you have
14:39:08 to build a budget for in the future.
14:39:12 Working with Pascoe, it was great because I could
14:39:17 hear other experiences and constraints in their centers. So some people were in similar situations as Lone Ranger's and some hadn't I more of an ideal situation with many hands and larger budget, and more access to materials.
14:39:34 So overall I would say that this was a fun challenging opportunity, I think the benefits for working on this type of project definitely outweighed anything negative, or perhaps that negative but more of a challenge, or a downside, it.
14:39:51 As a result, it's something that we are privileged to be a part of and something I think we can learn and grow from and take it into the future.
14:39:59 And so our digitize materials can be found out in her own right, or landing site on our website. Just say again Special thanks to NIH clear and kids lack for their help.
14:40:10 And now we will open it up to questions.
14:40:24 Great. Thank you so much, Jessica.
14:40:28 Thank you so much, Jessica. So as a reminder to everyone in the audience, you can submit your questions for the panelists.
14:40:37 By using the q amp a function at the bottom of your screen. And I will then relay those two to us.
14:40:47 Okay, so we have our first question from Amy po.
14:40:53 She says a question for Jessica, what resources do you recommend for learning about bound item scanning and scanning best practices.
14:41:02 As a great question.
14:41:04 I know, that's me for in New York has some great webinars, and I recommend looking at them I've watched numerous ones.
14:41:15 For best tips and tricks and they're also really great for large institutions, but they also pare it down for smaller institutions, and just looking at some of the book vendor demos have also been helpful.
14:41:33 Right and Marjorie Do you have anything to add to that.
14:41:39 I think one of the. I'll just say that one of the,
14:41:45 one of my experiences and working with the project was connecting, especially with, with some of our hidden voices institutions which hopefully will have a chance to speak to a little bit and the q amp a yeah is working with institutions that sometimes
14:42:03 are more of historical societies or museums and really don't have experience you know scanning bound items scanning books.
14:42:10 So, the interest rate project had early on,
14:42:16 compiled a list of kind of workflows and guidelines and resources. And that is something we provided to participants as well and I think that that has been really important.
14:42:32 Oh, and Amy is asking if you can type that name in the chat.
14:42:41 Yes, I'm looking up the organization right now to send you directly to their website.
14:42:47 Excellent.
14:42:49 All right, so please keep the questions coming, and I will,
14:42:56 I will raise a question for the three of us.
14:43:06 Jessica, I really appreciated your tips and takeaways I thought they were great about communication and really getting into just the, the day to day experience of working on, on a project like this and what kind of skills.
14:43:23 It takes are helpful in that process.
14:43:29 One thing I'm curious about for all three of us is are there, looking back, are there things you would have done differently, or are there things that going forward in another, another grant you would plan for you know you you would plan to do differently.
14:43:56 Well, well just because looking up that URL.
14:44:02 Maybe I can start.
14:44:07 I mentioned that we wouldn't work a little more closely with the participants to or the perspective participants to get better.
14:44:21 Frame counts and estimates, so that our budgets would have been a little more accurate.
14:44:28 I think that's a challenge for small repositories because that means they really have to go in and and count, or come up with a formula that enables them to produce reliable results.
14:44:42 Most of the time we were fine we just had a couple instances where the page counts were wildly off. Um, so I think that's, that's one thing I would do and then also encourage the prospective participants to learn more about how they are able to receive
14:45:02 and use grant money.
14:45:05 So that, I think, that have been treated would have had a.
14:45:13 We wouldn't have left a little bit of clear money on the table, we couldn't actually pay people for the work they did.
14:45:21 Those are a couple of mine.
14:45:26 Right. Um, I would have a similar vein of for Littlefield we had actually underestimated how many scans by quite a bit. And we were actually quite fortunate that we were partnering with an in house participants as we were able to negotiate a lower rate
14:45:41 and use some internal funding that we had.
14:45:46 That was something that was a live and learn experience.
14:45:55 Interestingly, the, the seas haven't always been clear about whether they're wanting or frame or poor record. And there's a difference in those two counts sometimes when you're doing compound objects for example it's a lot of frames, but only one record.
14:46:12 So, other place for clarity.
14:46:21 Know Lindsay.
14:46:22 What about you.
14:46:26 Well, so I think one of my big tips would be just the value of flexibility or the importance of flexibility, which I think echoes you know some of what you've both been saying to.
14:46:39 And so I was talking through the process of metadata QC potential metadata enhancement, and then also metadata applications. Collections as data uses for for the data set.
14:46:56 And you know that that's been a big chunk of my of my work on the project and my thinking on the project, and also the context for a lot of my outreach to participants and conversations and
14:47:13 negotiations with with participants and, I think, in, in hindsight, you know I spoke a little bit at the end of my presentation about how we ultimately as a project team thought a lot about metadata enhancements and kind of experiences that we wanted
14:47:36 to provide, and ultimately we kind of reaffirmed our commitment to, you know, having the institutional record be the canonical record, and I think we found ways to provide that experience or to provide those ways into the, the records are corpus in other
14:48:01 So in through subject visualization. Through the geo referencing visualization and also through thinking about data sets you know that might be really targeted for certain applications and that it's okay, you know, if we think, if the project is more
14:48:14 distributed if we have the you know the records are kind of sacrosanct and, and then we, you know, can do can do some other things with the data to.
14:48:25 And I think we, we came to that understanding through, through a lot of discussions through a lot of looking at meta data through taking surveys and questionnaires from participants to see if they had interested capacity in reacting enhanced meta data.
14:48:43 What they would be interested there and etc.
14:48:46 And
14:48:49 so I think, going into that process we had, which of course was impacted by Kobe Kobe kind of came right in the beginning of this but going into this process maybe at the beginning of 2020 we had decided we were going to do these metadata enhancement
14:49:08 events and we really wanted to find ways to give this meta data back to institutions, you know, based on their interests, and we were going to do it all, you know, and I think through conversations amongst ourselves and and and also with other institutions
14:49:26 we kind of realized, well if it's in some cases it really doesn't make sense for the institution to do that you know it doesn't serve their goals.
14:49:37 And that's okay, so.
14:49:41 So we're going to just think about creative workarounds or not even workarounds but kind of, how can we re envision what we want to do and not stay locked into this,
14:49:53 this mindset of standardization that I think can be limiting and i think i i've
14:50:00 that's been helpful to me in moving forward to my collaboration with the smaller repositories for the hidden voices initiative as well, where they're less resource repositories.
14:50:12 In most cases, they do have some archives and library, infrastructure, but maybe a full fledged Digital Asset Management System, you know their, their museums or their historical societies.
14:50:27 And, you know, I think with we've taken into the hidden voices initiative, some humility in terms of in terms of you know not everyone's participation is going to look the same and that's okay, you know and and really working with working with participants
14:50:44 to see what they want to get out of the experience and and what their goals are. And then, you know, in some cases, we can we can modify things on our end to accommodate that.
14:50:55 You know, that rather than imposing that I think that's the beauty of the metadata schema that we developed is that it, it has that kind of push and pull or, or that two way road, and, you know, just to in the spirit of that just being really flexible.
14:51:18 Alright, we are welcoming other questions from the audience. But I certainly have many of my own.
14:51:26 So, another.
14:51:49 in tech school Jessica.
14:52:03 And in the value of kind of community service or giving back to not only the profession but to your kind of local archives and and museum clan community and how how this project is in some way like an opportunity to do that for participants and for the
14:52:16 P eyes.
14:52:18 And you mentioned making connections.
14:52:22 Jessica and that's been very helpful for you, for your institution and kind of for you professionally.
14:52:30 Do you, do you have thoughts about other community aspects of your involvement in the grant.
14:52:40 It was.
14:52:42 It was a welcome to experience and being able to see what other places are doing, and to be able to make those professional and connections, not just you know, from a scanning perspective, but it's also what else, what are they handling as an institution
14:52:57 what materials, or what types of collections they have how can we make more of a local connection that I think, as, as a university and as a part of, you know, any place you sort of get siloed.
14:53:10 So how do you how do you make and branch connections, whether it's just collection collection or is it person to person so if I find a grant that might be great for another institution.
14:53:20 I can always point them that way, or something like that and I think that's a given take that past school has started really to imbibe and really to thrive on
14:53:33 cuts mercury community.
14:53:36 Well, I think one of them.
14:53:40 The most fun things we've done are the meta data enhancement events so we did one in person event, which involved about 30 archivists curators grad students, and a lot of pizza and baked goods and didn't transcription and added subject headings and that
14:54:03 was really fun but then when we when covered hit.
14:54:09 We were able to successfully transition to to zoom to online work was a little harder to community, and I'll bet I missed the baked goods.
14:54:21 But I think it also gave last spring in particular, gave a really wide ranging number of community members the opportunity to contribute, and to learn and to interact with their colleagues and again it was everybody from experience catalog there's two
14:54:46 grad students who, who were sort of working together to build,
14:54:53 build out this meta data. So, I think I'm really glad we've been able to provide that opportunity which has been them but also really benefit of our metadata, as well.
14:55:15 Yeah, I think the meta data enhancement events were the timing was interesting because we, at first, zoom event that we had last spring. We that initially as he said planned for it to be in person but then coven hit, you know, two weeks beforehand, before
14:55:35 it was, or even a week and a half kind of the shutdown started happening.
14:55:39 And so we moved it online and that was really an experiment at that point we. I don't think any of us had experience.
14:55:48 You know, running a virtual event like that so it was a learning experience and.
14:55:55 And I think kind of a fruit just because of the timing turned out to be a little bit of a proof of concept for some other practical events going forward you know we all realize, like, we can do this this is fun you know that this works.
14:56:10 And now of course it's so second nature.
14:56:14 So that's something that I have thought about in the context of specifically those events, and in her own right and more broadly with Paxil just that kind of other ways of building community in a virtual space.
14:56:30 Alright, will maybe I will invite the two of you is there anything, any other tips you would like to mention any other burning thoughts.
14:56:46 I would just say don't be afraid to join a project. Don't be afraid, you hold yourself back just because you think that you don't have everything perfect or everything in line.
14:56:56 Just try it and go for it. Take the small steps, and you'll eventually get to a larger place with your standing projects or just connections.
14:57:07 And I have to admit I'm, I'm looking towards grant number six. So
14:57:14 I think there's more fun stuff to be done, particularly with the data, but also to continue to build the corpus of. That's not a tip but but I don't think six years ago when we started talking to NIH could have imagined where we'd be in five years so
14:57:33 I guess I'm echoing Jessica to just gotta take that leap of faith and go for it.
14:57:42 I appreciate that Jessica, as I've been, as I mentioned a couple times working with these smaller institutions to explore partnerships and possible digitization.
14:57:56 And of course, everyone is so slam these days with, you know, covert and reopening, and so I know I have been very grateful for, for everyone's time and willingness to take that leap of faith, and explore a partnership and and say we're going to do this
14:58:18 we're going to make sure it gets done. So, we couldn't do it without the participants.
14:58:23 Right.
14:58:25 Well, on that note, perhaps we can end a couple minutes early and let everyone prepped for the next session.
14:58:36 Do we have our, our Merrick
14:58:42 person to.
14:58:44 Maybe not.
14:58:45 All right. Um, so I will.
14:58:49 I'm going to share a slide, with all of you once more
14:58:56 to thank our sponsor again.
14:59:00 And.
14:59:12 Right.
14:59:16 Ok.