Mark Coulbourne: So on behalf of the Preservation Administrators Interest Group and the Preservation Committee of the Music Library Association. I would like to welcome you.
Mark Coulbourne: My name is Mark Colborne and I, along with Kim Norman, are the co-chairs of Paige.
Mark Coulbourne: Today we are going to have 3 separate discussions with time for questions and answers at the end of each discussion, and there will be time at the end for questions as well.
Mark Coulbourne: I'm going to put. I'm going to drop a link for the detailed schedule into the chat here just a moment.
Mark Coulbourne: But before I do, we have a little bit of housekeeping before we get started.
Mark Coulbourne: If you have questions, please add them to the QA. Section.
Mark Coulbourne: And if you have comments, please put those into chat.
Mark Coulbourne: Additionally, if you hadn't noticed already, we are recording this symposium
Mark Coulbourne: and it will be placed onto the University of Maryland Digital Repository in the next few days.
Mark Coulbourne: Once the recording is uploaded, we will send out to links to it, using the same distribution list
Mark Coulbourne: and discussion boards where we had been posting about the symposium.
Mark Coulbourne: So without further ado, I will let Kim Norman introduce our speakers and present their bios.
Kim Norman: Hi, everyone! Our symposium speakers today in alphabetical order are Alice Carly. Give a wave. Alice.
Kim Norman: who literally wrote the book on Binding and care of printed Music, published by AR. Editions for the Music Library Association. Alice is the Conservator Sibley Music Library at the Eastman School of Music of the University of Rochester, and she currently Chairs, the Preservation Committee of the Music Library Association.
Kim Norman: Alice has taught an annual summer course at Eastman in hands-on music binding and preservation for the past 20 years, and can still welcome new students this coming summer.
Kim Norman: Next, Michael Foley
Kim Norman: is the manager of the University of California Library bindery, and has over 20 years of service to the department. The Uc. Library Bindery was established in 1908, and is charged to service the print materials held in Uc. Library collections. The department also provides library binding services to other schools in higher education. Situated in the West.
Kim Norman: Michael arrived at Uc. With close to 20 years of experience, working for commercial printing and bookbinding operations in the private sector. Those work experiences have given Michael a full understanding of the machinery, the material and the craftsmanship necessary to equip an operation designated to Service library print collections.
Kim Norman: Dan Lapata
Kim Norman: is the library is the binary supervisor at Sibley music library with degrees in both music and library science. Dan joined Sibley in 2012 to supervise an Neh. Scanning and publishing project for over 20,000 free public domain scores from Sibley's collection. These scores may be accessed through the link. You are research.rochester.edu, and also mirrored on this link.
Kim Norman: IMSL. p.com.
Kim Norman: Dan moved into the position of Bindery Supervisor after the Neh project, and is responsible for third party procedures, such as commercial binding and deacidification practices. He also oversees the in-house pamphlet binding process primarily done by student workers. Dan is also a prolific basis and plays regularly around the Rochester New York region.
Kim Norman: Steve Quintillion
Kim Norman: is the music cataloging coordinator at University of Maryland. He either performs or oversees all the music cataloging at Umd, including scores sound recordings and video. Steve has a degree in music and is a performing guitarist, vocalist and teaching artists.
Kim Norman: If you walk by his house in Gaithersburg, Maryland that he shares with his partner Juliet. You hear him? You may hear him through an open window playing their Yamaha Baby Grand, or see their elderly, stubborn dachshund in the front yard.
Kim Norman: Katie pursue
Kim Norman: is the preservation librarian at Northwestern University libraries. She supervises, she supervises preventative conservation activities, including environmental monitoring commercial binding nasty acidification, preservation, assessments, collection, care of general collections.
Kim Norman: audio visual preservation, and more.
Kim Norman: Katie is involved with the La Ala Preservation Outreach Committee, and focuses on training and public facing as well as internal outreach.
Kim Norman: And finally, last, but not least, Peter Shirts is the music and dance librarian for Emory libraries at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. Peter has published research on a number of topics, including music, preservation, open access, and streaming media. Welcome to all our wonderful symposium speakers.
Mark Coulbourne: One moment, and I'm going to put the presentation up.
Katie Risseeuw: Hello! All. I guess I'm up first.
Katie Risseeuw: My name is Katie Rasu, as they said, and I just at the very beginning of this, we all just wanted to go through our our respective institutions and just give a little overview of where we're coming from and the size of our organizations. And
Katie Risseeuw: kind of what impacts our binding. So a Northwestern university has a very strong music school. And to support that our music collections focus on post 1945.
Katie Risseeuw: We have about 300,000 total circulating music items and almost 10,000 acquisitions per year. We also have a number of audio visual materials, rare books and archives. The materials audio visual materials are mostly from archival collections, and also include decades of performance recordings from the Beanon school of music.
Katie Risseeuw: We currently only have one fte cataloger and we have
Katie Risseeuw: here and there we do have an acquisitions, music cataloger and so obviously, that does impact what we have in the backlog and what we're able to do, which in turn affects what we can do in preservation, and how much we have coming in. So in total, there's
Katie Risseeuw: in terms of a full time equivalent it's very small for what our preservation folks are doing so that includes processing for the binding, for the bindery, and also some of the in house work we do, and it's split between conservation lab folks, and then also our preservation.
Katie Risseeuw: folks.
Katie Risseeuw: so that's basically all I have for Northwestern. Next up.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Hi Sibley Music Library is part of the Eastman School of Music. It supports the Eastman School of Music, so it's kind of the opposite of most academic libraries. At Sibley there are 3 floors of music, and then, if you go at the back of one of the floors. There are, I think, 2 shelf ranges of everything that is not an M.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So that we have a whole lot of music holdings. I was. Dan and I were both amazed to see how much uncataloged stuff we still have. I mean, we know how hard the catalogers have been working on stuff that it's possible that that's out of date. But anyway,
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: most of what we acquire, therefore, are scores. And I will note that a lot of what we get is gifts as well, because
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we're just one of the places that if somebody has a music collection they'll and you know that that they want to
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: park someplace. I know our library director kind of fans off gifts with both hands, but I think in a recent year at the Acquisitions department processed 15,000 gifts.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: so it it really does. Impact our work flow in terms of dealing with older materials, even when they're new to us. So we have 3 full time finding and preservation employees, and also some student workers who mostly work with the new bindings. Dan, anything you wanna add.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I I wrote the slide. You said the slide. No, we're good. So next.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): Hey? I'm Steve Quintillion. I'm the music cataloger at the University of Maryland.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): yeah, we have a large music library to support our very strong music school here at
Steve Quintilian (he/him): our system also supports. We're the largest music library in
Steve Quintilian (he/him): the consortium of Maryland universities, and so
Steve Quintilian (he/him): many of the other institutions, you know, rely on our on our collection here as well.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): The Performing Arts library is
Steve Quintilian (he/him): kind of full at this point, so we we have moved a number of things like their oversize collection to
Steve Quintilian (he/him): off-site housing. I'm kind of here as moral support as a cataloger
Steve Quintilian (he/him): and a musician to apologize to all of my colleagues for the stuff that we sent you. All this all the weird things that inevitably I'm I'm downstairs talking to my colleagues to Mark and others about weird stuff that that shows up and
Steve Quintilian (he/him): so I'm here to talk about. And you know things related to to cataloging and the performance of music.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): Mark, you, wanna jump in with anything.
Mark Coulbourne: You've done an excellent job. Thank you, Steve.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): Thanks.
Mark Coulbourne: Peter, you're up next.
Mark Coulbourne: Hey.
Mark Coulbourne: Peter, are you.
Peter Shirts: Okay. Can you hear me now?
Mark Coulbourne: Yes.
Peter Shirts: Okay. Sorry about that. That was a little strange. So I'm here representing the medium institutions.
Peter Shirts: here, we we catalog or so. We have about 50,000 physical scores here at Emory. It's it's kind of a smaller music
Peter Shirts: program with
Peter Shirts: and we we only have about 500 new scores a year, and also we. We don't have our own
Peter Shirts: preservation department for music. It's a centralized preservation department. And music is only part of their job. And and actually, a lot of the preservation has happened through cataloging and and most of the preservation assessments, unless it's really A weird item is handled
Peter Shirts: by students after being, you know, taught how to do it. And and we actually don't have a full time music catalog, or we have a we we have a vendor. Who who's a person? Lynn Jaffe, who mo does most of our cataloging or original cataloging, anyway.
Peter Shirts: so that's that's where we are at, Emory.
Peter Shirts: The medium folks.
Michael Foley: Hello, everyone good to see you all here. My input. Here, I think, is going to be limited, and I think what I can speak to, though, is my observations over the last
Michael Foley: 20 years really about music binding in and of itself, and one is that it is a specialized field in library binding. You have scores and parts, for example, that need to be preserved and maintained as a set
Michael Foley: and if one of those pieces goes away then, that certainly diminishes the value to the patrons for those music sets.
Michael Foley: We see things with limited margins and binding often. And how how does a book binder deal with that? Pamphlets seem to be a very good solution because you're not actually, you. You're just enclosing the original items in a pamphlet. But as we have heard, some of these items are old and worn, and one way that we've dealt with that here at the library is
Michael Foley: is digitizing them and then outputting them to print. We can take the images and clean them up so that if they're stained, or often darkened over time we can reprint that on a white paper.
Michael Foley: But
Michael Foley: what we've seen is that it really takes time and effort to do all this. I mean the effort is fine, the time runs up costs so as a
Michael Foley: as a
Michael Foley: an aspect of library bindery. In and of itself the music binding can be, I would say, cost prohibitive.
Michael Foley: And so that what what we've seen here at the library bindery is that many solutions are essentially abandoned, and that it seems to be that a lot of the libraries are just assuming that
Michael Foley: by themselves, and using pamphlets as a solution. So
Michael Foley: So you know I'm here, and I'll speak to things as I see them come up and thank you all for coming today.
Mark Coulbourne: Who would like to start with? Why, we buying music.
Peter Shirts: I I think I should start here. So
Peter Shirts: binding music. So I I get a lot of people asking me
Peter Shirts: you know, various very other institutions people within and this comes up every once in a while. Why bind music? And it's probably a question that maybe a lot of your institutions are are asking you, why does music need special treatment?
Peter Shirts: And I think this picture here does a lot to illustrate
Peter Shirts: why, music
Peter Shirts: it is normally just single signature. You know. There, there's a lot of. We'll talk about all the variations, but kind of the the quintessential piece of sheet music is a single signature, and on library shelves they are destroyed just by being on the shelves. They don't sit up straight.
Peter Shirts: They if if left of their own, they'll and we'll have other pictures here.
Peter Shirts: They'll destroy themselves leaning over. If when people check them out, they get destroyed in backpacks.
Peter Shirts: And the other important thing about
Peter Shirts: music is that it's harder to replace. There's not print runs are usually not that long. Now it depends. Sometimes there's some additions that are there forever. But you really have to balance like, how much preservation do I do
Peter Shirts: versus? Do I want to buy this again immediately, or within a year, or whatever. So those are all important things to keep in mind so normally. In order to preserve the life of the object, make sure that it survives not only just standing on the shelves, but
Peter Shirts: circulating. We have to do some sort of preservation treatment.
Peter Shirts: And it really depend, we're going to talk about the the different options about that. Does anyone want to take over anything I missed.
Peter Shirts: Oh, here we go!
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I'd be up to say something open ability since, I mean, and I think there's a a number of us here have have conservatory users so that something that is gonna like stand up on a stand is
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: kind of paramount
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: actually, I'm gonna let others maybe add to that, because I think Peter really covered a lot of the rest.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I noticed that large formats
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: is a
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: mentioned on there. We're going to see some large formats a little later in this presentation, I think.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: actually, I'm going to show a sample.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: can we? Can we? Yeah, let's see.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: go on here for a minute. This is a pretty trashed score.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It was given to us
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: as a gift in 1 89. It actually dates from 1, 43. I am amazed that it's not brittle, but it's not
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: so in the past 30 years it is whoops. Now you can see one of the reasons what it has circulated 19 times.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: the part. And here's one of the things I wanted to show in terms of like how people use music.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I don't know if you can see that the part has been written all over.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: interestingly enough, and unusually enough, when we go to rebind this score instead of paying about, we could replace it for 20 bucks.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: But, on the other hand, we can rebind it for the cost of the new binder which we would have to put on the new score, anyway. And I'm actually going to leave the markings, which is
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: real unusual for us in this particular score, because they are really useful performance markings. We mostly do erase markings, which are mostly, you know, the little spectacles to tell you to watch the other players and circled them, measure numbers. And we also erase the analyses, because, you know, we are a university students should be doing this stuff for themselves.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And we also don't want to see somebody's really bad analysis, you know, like replicated year after year in some theory class. So anyhow.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I thought that might give a little further. Just look at
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: how music gets used. It's a little different than how books get used in
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: student scholarship.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I would just add to that with 13 circulations.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: music.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: especially pamphlet style. Music is used over and over and over again by the same person as opposed to reading a book where I finished my page, and I've turned the page and I move on. I'm always going back and forth, so there's a lot of wear and tear when it comes to using performing scores. And there's also a lot of wear and tear using study scores as well, which are
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: thicker and tend to be
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: found hardcover and whatnot, because people are listening the same thing over and over again, and they're writing their analysis. And those hard covers as well. So music is used fairly differently than than most other academic books. From my experience.
Michael Foley: I would like to speak a little bit to the slide into the photograph of the slide. And that's an example of a music.
Michael Foley: He's yeah.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah.
Michael Foley: Yeah, that has been output. It's been scanned and a gray scale. And then through Photoshop. There's some scripts, and after you set up the first couple of pages you can mask out the dark colors, and you can also bring and and enhance the black.
Michael Foley: so that it becomes a very readable piece. One of the things about scans that you can also do is you can also scale them. So, for example, what we're seeing there is a 12 by 18 sheet that's the images were placed a into a booklet format and indesign and then it's printed double sided
Michael Foley: but with something like this you could also scale them to fit on an 1117 image. So
Michael Foley: It takes time and skill to do that. And but I did want to say that there is a solution there
Michael Foley: that can be found for items that are in high use and circulation.
Mark Coulbourne: Hmm, Alice, do? Do we feel like we've covered this particular slide? I can advance.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: One thing that I would say is that Eastman does also have an ensembles library. We don't have a speaker from that library. It's like a different world. The decisions about what markings you keep and what marking do we race are quite different the way I mean, they store everything as far as I know, in, you know, like big file cabinets, and pull them out
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: to to circulate them. So
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that is one thing that I thought was worth mentioning, though we're not gonna go on from there.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: New viewers.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I could talk about that real quick myself.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: in one moment.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Okay. Nope, you need to mute the computer.
Peter Shirts: While while they're waiting to do that.
Peter Shirts: I I just wanna say, go if you go back a slide, mark
Peter Shirts: or not. Okay, that's fine. I was just gonna say for special collections, for special collections. We're not also not really going to be talking about that. The the
Peter Shirts: the needs for music and special collections usually very different. It's not being used in a performative way, it's not being put on a stand, and usually the materials are much more fragile. And so there's gonna be. Usually there's some sort of enclosure that's put on it, or or something in order to just stabilize it, and that that's something else we're not going to be talking about. Sorry. Go ahead, Alice.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: That's okay.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I was going to say on on this next slide. You'll see there's
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: a fair amount. That's the same
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: for all of us, at least we all do at least some pamphlet binding
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: looks like we all do at least some commercial binding. We all put some things in boxes, and we all leave some things unbound.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I'm curious, Peter, when you say, leaving unbound scores with multiple signatures thicker than a quarter of an inch deferred.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I think I know what that means, but I wanna hear you say it.
Peter Shirts: Sure. Yeah. So there we.
Peter Shirts: we're we've always keep being asked to spend less money on music binding. And one way that I and I, actually, we took this from Chapel Hill, University of North Carolina Chapel Hill does this. Basically, if if it's a paperback book.
Peter Shirts: and we're, you know, basically doing this for scores to multiple signatures. It's it's thick. It's not just one signature. We've just market and put it on the shelf. Some of those scores will not be used very much, and and so can stay on the shelves. But once it's been you know, it's still soft bound, and and if it's got enough other things on the shelf that'll like, keep it stable.
Peter Shirts: and if you know the things like that, it it would may be okay on the shelf, but once we start seeing signs of where or it's being checked out multiple times, the idea is then to bind it at that point and find a solution. So you do need to keep track in in this particular solution of check when things are coming back in and seeing what state they're in.
Peter Shirts: because otherwise you can start destroying things pretty quickly. But we know in academic libraries, you know, there are a large portion of of scores or or items that just don't get used or don't get used for 10 or more years, and then suddenly start being used. So this is just kind of one way. It's not necessarily a great way, but
Peter Shirts: it's a way that they've determined to to save money on binding.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Here's a sample. By the way, that red lettering across the date do slip says, please return to circulation after this has been checked out twice. We actually we. We did that for, like nearly all books for a long time, we finally gave up and stopped putting that on because
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: a if something gets trashed they'll
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: they'll send it up to us anyway. And usually it's not that bad that we can't just rebind it and B, we often would find things coming back to us, needing to be rebound after
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: 10 circulations which for books isn't
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: so damaging. So finally, we just stopped putting that on books. Of course there are scores
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that are like those books.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We aren't going to put this on the shelf unbound because 10 circulations well.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I don't know parent, writer or text. Maybe it'll be used a little more respectfully. But still, in all
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: like Dan said, music gets used harder per circulation. So I'm not sure we're going to apply that to scores. But it it could be a way.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: To like you say, defer the cost.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I see there's a couple questions in the question and answer, and I think that first question from Beth. I think we've
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: covered most of what you've asked because we've talked about digitization and reprinting, and we've talked about bind after X circulations. If there's anything extra you need, answered, please type in
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: somebody wanted to know about the shell stable requirements.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Which I think.
Katie Risseeuw: I can talk about that.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah.
Katie Risseeuw: So for our shelf stable requirements.
Katie Risseeuw: it's basically anything that's over a quarter of an inch and also meets kind of like a 5 by 7. So any scores that are just like an adhesive bound or multiple signatures. If it is stable enough to go on the shelf, then we will put it there, and if things come back to us, we have probably, like everyone else, just come to our own preservation department again, we don't have a separate music preservation area.
Katie Risseeuw: If a book has circulated and is damaged, then it comes to us and they will make the decision at the circulation desk. We've trained them, and they're wonderful people. So when they see something that needs any kind of work, they send it to us so a book could circulate.
Katie Risseeuw: however, many times, until it's finally damaged, and then it'll come to us. So we don't have any kind of specific numbers for circulation. So, and we use that shelf stable
Katie Risseeuw: measurement for basically everything in the library. So
Katie Risseeuw: and the circulation issue for everything in the library so streamlined.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I think some of the questions showing up in the QA. We're going to be getting onto in a kind of an organic way as we go. So why don't we keep going for the moment? And then we can come back and catch the ones that didn't come up? How does that sound mark.
Mark Coulbourne: Perfect sounds, great.
Katie Risseeuw: So, just yeah.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Go ahead!
Katie Risseeuw: I'll just start our in house binding. We have.
Katie Risseeuw: Generally we have a budget for binding, which is more than perhaps the time we have
Katie Risseeuw: for all the shell prep in house, and so it's always a balance, as I'm sure everyone else knows about money versus staff time and supplies. So mostly when we make decisions about what we're going to send to the bindery versus what we're going to do in house. It has to physically do with how thin or fragile a a pamphlet is, and even if there's scores like that's
Katie Risseeuw: totally fine, we can, or scores with pot parts. We put that in a pocket, too. And so then there's also some that we get because of the nature of our post, 1945. Concentration. There's a lot of
Katie Risseeuw: scores that are just pieces of paper with odd notations on them. So we will also do those in house and just put them in a binder in a pocket. Depending on what it has. You know, we have to be creative sometimes to make sure that everything is accessible and understandable, and then also, so that if a page is lost when it comes back and is returned to make sure that all of those pages are there.
Katie Risseeuw: So and we don't keep statistics on that sort of thing.
Katie Risseeuw: I just know some statistics. About sewing. Just the pamphlets due to how those particular stats are kept, but you know you never have the stats when you want them right.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: well, I'll go. I'll but we'll just keep going across the top. And
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: this score is is like the kind that Michael was talking about. We I didn't actually print this one from a Pdf. We don't do all that much just historically.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Sibley has tended to prefer to buy on paper rather than P Pdf. If given the choice. So the only things that we buy as Pdfs are things that we can only get that way. This happens to be one that we scanned and reprinted. This is on 11 by 17 paper, folded to 8 and a half by 11, because we don't have the kind of equipment that that Michael's got in in the. We can't print 12 by 18,
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: but 11 by 17 works for a lot of stuff and tends to work for scores that, like self publishing composers send as a Pdf. Because they are thinking about 8 and a half by 11
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and there is less else to say about that which I'm not going to.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and I can't remember what slide now we were on. Oh, yeah, okay, yes. Otherwise I don't know if you can see the back wall way behind us. That's like, got a whole lot of pam of, you know, pamphlets on it. That's that's our to do list and depending you how many we bind kind of depends on how many got got purchased or catalogued as gifts in the past year.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and what you can't see, and it wouldn't make any difference if you did or not. We had a shelf about yay that was like jammed full of
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: oversize spiral binds, and that was most of what our special binding and Dan here guarded and bound all of them within about the past year, except for one that we will probably start binding behind you our our
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: other full time employee. Katie is here, and we actually kinda like her to start doing that behind us. So you can kind of see the process happening.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and and this goes to one of the questions in the question box, as far as spiral bind spiral bound parts like the Jennifer Hicken scores, and and I've done a few others.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: tend to break those out and then guard them into signatures and then sew them into cover sheets, so they'll fit nicely into a pocket
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: in the back of either a hardcover that we're gonna send out to our commercial binder, or in the in the back pocket of a pamphlet depending on how thick
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: the main score is. That way, you know, the spirals kind of get in the way, and they make things thicker and the spiral, and and that all depends on how much shelf space you have in your, you know, in your stacks, and and and then the other, and then the other aspect of that is, how much internal labor do you have to actually break those things apart and guard them? And so them, etc, etc.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So there.
Peter Shirts: The idea.
Michael Foley: Just give us a sense, please, of how how much like. Let's say you had a 12 page score with or 12 page parked
Michael Foley: in a spiral bind. How long might that take you to put the guards on, and then assemble it into a book.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Under 10 min. Yeah, more like 5. Actually like like, Dan said, we'll talk a little bit more about spiral binding, and I'll introduce. Katie Hutchings, who is like you, said our our third full time person, who has done a lot of this, and she will behind us take the spiral off and guard and bind a 41 page score
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: during the rest of this conversation, and we can time it.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Katie says, alright. But, anyhow. Let's let's talk about everybody else, too.
Peter Shirts: Yeah, yeah, I know, we're talking gonna talk about spiral later. So I just quickly on Emory, you know, again, a smaller operation students instead of tying
Peter Shirts: pamphlet scores, which is, is kind of probably a better. I'm sure it's better we've been stapling, and it's easier to teach the students how to do that. You do need to use the right type of staples.
Peter Shirts: That won't. If you use the wrong type, then they'll, you know they'll rest over time. So make sure you're using the right type of staples if you are stapling them into the into the pamphlet which we buy, you know, off the shelf.
Peter Shirts: and then we'll talk about the custom binds later. I think so. I don't know if Steve wants to say anything about Maryland.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): I would say, would Mark want to see anything over there?
Peter Shirts: Right, mark.
Mark Coulbourne: So at Maryland we do roughly 1,000 per year, depending on the year. We do custom enclosures for our size, which I know, we're going to talk about later. And in house binding represents. And music scores in general represent about 25 to 30% of our work flow here in preservation.
Mark Coulbourne: Yeah, Katie, do you want to start with the outsource binding.
Katie Risseeuw: Sure as I had mentioned before, we do send more things to the commercial binder hf group than we do in house. So here's just some numbers. That we have once. Sometimes it's influenced by how much the binder can handle at once. Cause we could definitely overload them and again, it also depends on if we have the the second music cataloger, and so
Katie Risseeuw: that's up and down. So I think we haven't had one for about 6 months or more. So lately our numbers have been down. For the new things that have come in and the non pamphlet scores are just the regular adhesive or signature. Recase
Katie Risseeuw: bound things, or also some of the the music books where we will. If it's an adhesive bound
Katie Risseeuw: score with parts, there's a specific format that the Hf. Group has called a music book, which is
Katie Risseeuw: only if you're in their lingo world doesn't make sense but in general for all of the binding that we do, because serials have gone down so much music is really making up quite a bit of our total binding costs. Due to the number, and due to the importance of the collection.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Alright, Dan, I'll let you speak about outsource binding for us. And I think Katie is sort of slowly starting.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah, okay, but anyhow, we'll we'll in. In the past 2 years we've spent 709, we we've sent 790 scores, and these would be scores of 60 pages or more. To our our group. Hf group
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: for hardcover binding. We've also sent 435 periodicals, which we will combine
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: volumes and then have them recast. And then, we've sent 14 thesis that which I'm surprised. We haven't sent more because we tend to bind all the thesis that come through our doctoral program. And hf, group has changed a lot over the the past couple of years, cause they've bought out a lot of companies, and then
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: they consolidated. And it's been. It's been an interesting journey.
Peter Shirts: I I'll just say we use hf group as as a binder. But actually, we haven't actually sent any scores to be bound in a couple of years. We have a stack
Peter Shirts: but we didn't send anything to the bindery
Peter Shirts: for the 0 things for a while in the pandemic for various reasons, and they're still working on the backlog of periodicals. Is my understanding. So
Peter Shirts: hopefully, we'll send some of those, very, you know, exceptional scores to the bindery soon, but until then they they're waiting.
Mark Coulbourne: And I and I can speak to Maryland. Here at Maryland we use a company called Workbook Binding. They're a small family operation located in Pennsylvania.
Mark Coulbourne: And the only thing we generally send to the bindery are materials that require a hard bind. So you know, think very thick music scores, and it maybe totals 100 a year.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And I've got a couple of things having to do with questions people have asked.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Hf group
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: actually conglomeration. Now of a number of binders that used to be, you know, individual binders.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Heckman bindery is, I think, was the H in Hf group, but I'm not sure. At any rate, they've been around for a long time in Texas. We've used them. We also used to send things to general book bindery, which also got amalgamated into hf group, and then was closed during the pandemic.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we have always sent, by the way, an answer to Amber's question scores as monographs. I'm not sure whether the music binding has to do with like things with pockets. We just tell them to add pockets so that
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: their removal of music as a type hasn't changed our workflow just because our workflow didn't include it. But I'd be curious to see her if if anybody else has had a different
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: experience with that
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: right? And as far as the plant hf,
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: they have dictated to us that we're using Indiana. We used to use one out of Ohio and they've moved it. Yeah.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And I.
Mark Coulbourne: Before we move on, Alison and Dan, you've got a couple of questions about guarding in here, including
Mark Coulbourne: you know what materials you're using and and explaining, guarding for
Mark Coulbourne: for spiral bound materials.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Gardening for spiral bound materials.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we take off the spirals we use in this case. And
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: yes, we've taken off the spirals. And here actually
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: love me.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: this one!
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: This is something that I actually asked Gaylord to make.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We had been for a long time using Tiek, the Gaylord soft structure, very thin, floppy, Tieveck ever since. I forget what we had it for before we had some, and a student said, Oh, couldn't we use this to guard with cause. It's so floppy. And we said, What a great idea!
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: The only thing is it comes in these great big rolls. We cut the rolls into these strips, and we use white glue on these strips.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I asked Gaylord if they could come up with something that would be like that thin. Tie back but have water activated glue on it. And they did. And it comes in these roles. The only downside of these roles is that they can occasionally kind of stick themselves together in damp weather. I have not seen that happen with
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: once you've like glued this onto a paper, even paper that has holes in it like a spiral bind it it. They do not seem to glue themselves together down the middle, which is something you would want to avoid. So I would recommend this. And if you go to the Gaylord website
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: you know what I'll have to. I I think what we should maybe do is for some of these answers. Just get back to the questioners with that after this is done, and then we can add those answers, perhaps to the presentation for for later users. How about that?
Mark Coulbourne: That sounds perfect, Alice. Thank you.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Right before we move on, though, I wanna give a quick definition of of guarding, because I've seen that come up a few times. And that is basically the process of gluing sheets together. That's going to be hardy enough to withstand the center binding or withstand sewing through the the
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: through the v of of the paper without ripping the paper apart. That's why tie back is great, because when you pull a thread through that it's not gonna rip the thread, or this thick tape that we just showed you is not gonna rip through that tape. So guarding is the pro. Guarding is another word for gluing.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Hmm.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: guarding date.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Do you want to? We can move on now? Yes. Yeah. Do you want me to do it? I guess this workstation.
Peter Shirts: So I'll talk a little bit about this, since I'm I'm the one that seems to be mostly on a budget here. So we talked about deferred binding already.
Peter Shirts: so a another thing that I've seen is you can
Peter Shirts: some libraries will in order to have, because the problem, of course, is
Peter Shirts: scores, you know, bending that's the main thing. So if you can stiff if you can make the
Peter Shirts: the covers thicker.
Peter Shirts: That can help it's not, you know, a great solution compared to these others, but it's cheaper.
Peter Shirts: so unbound sheet music can be stored in in in cabinets, and we're talking about with the ensemble libraries. That's mainly what they do. Sometimes, if we there's a libraries, will have a collection of like like a historical sheet. Music.
Peter Shirts: That is really is kind of, you know. Usually a couple of sheets of paper, and there's lots of it would just be prohibitive to bind it so they they may store it in just boxes that people can, you know, in alphabetical order or something. So that's that's one thing you can do.
Peter Shirts: Does someone want to talk about?
Peter Shirts: pocket Bud, you know, budget options for pockets.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I've got a couple of samples I'll I'll show them, and if anybody audits there may be. By the way I did have here is something that we stiffened, and
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: the the pros and cons of stiffening it is cheaper than sending it out to a bindery. It's totally flush binding. You don't have anything keeping the pages off the shelf.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: But it's
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: But it does seem to work, though I will say this score has not yet circulated.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: You glue boards to the insides of the back covers. You do have to cover the outside with some cloth so that the hinge just doesn't just rip right off, which it will otherwise. So now it is totally dependent on
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: having, you know the books stay in those now stiffened covers, but it was totally dependent on them staying in the non stiffened covers before either. So this is something that I used to just like, totally poo, poo! But
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we tried it.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It works
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: at least for
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: things that don't get heavy use.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Budget pockets. I have a couple of particular things in mind. We do not buy pamphlets with pockets.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We add our own pockets that we cut out of cloth, and then just blew right around the outside. Some of the things I like about it is that they they hold
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: much more. I mean, you know, we got 3 nice
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: big old parts. In this pocket, which I don't think that would fit in the kind of commercial pocket that comes all glued to one side, and also, no matter how much you
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: pull on this pocket from this side when you're getting the music in and out. The pocket's not going to rip off the back of the binder, because it's actually being held by the binder itself. I've been really happy with that style of pocket. I have not seen them like tear off the back.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I mean once, and maybe a blue moon. But I haven't seen this pocket rip off.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I don't know when I last saw one, so that that I think works well. We have one other slightly different kind of pocket that is cut from just a long
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: strip.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Here's the last of our last 6 inch roll. We gotta buy some more.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: That we cut up using
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: templates.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And that's a very cost effective for me. Just way to add pockets to something. There we go. Katie's got one
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: those actually, I I no longer even think of as budget because we use them for everything. But they do cost a lot less than most of the other options that are out there.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah, I think that's all the budget stuff
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I had either.
Katie Risseeuw: We just wanted to list all of the different formats that we've come across.
Katie Risseeuw: because I'm sure if anyone's worked in music libraries, you've seen all kinds of things. And again, especially us with the post, 1945 collecting focus. So here's just a bunch that we'll probably talk about
Katie Risseeuw: in a minute.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I got. Here's a here's a little thick one.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Here's a big, thin one
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: this one's on, and this I wanted to show Daiso paper. I'm gonna see if you can hold it. You you see how it's kind of brown around the edges. These guys also smell weird cause the paper is impregnated with ammonia, so that these ones we don't deidify, because the 2 things that will attack.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Daisal, printing is light, unfortunately, and alkalinity. So that's why this is still stuck in an antique acidic binding.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So, anyhow. Oh, yeah, there's a big skinny that's a single sheet 10, yes, because it also had another sheet.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Serious man, anyhow.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: All right, Dan.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: you'll have to tell them that I'm actually slower doing these specials than you
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: people.
Mark Coulbourne: Are we good Alice, for this.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah.
Mark Coulbourne: But okay.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah.
Mark Coulbourne: Okay, I, think we covered.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Oh, actually, I think Dan did have a couple of more things he wanted to say about spiral binds. I'm sorry I was. I was, yeah, just the 60 page thing worth mentioning, as far as spiral binds are concerned. And I love this picture of the spiral falling over.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: if it's more than 60 pages, we send them out to Hf group to be hardcover commercial bound. If they're less than 60 pages.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: it's it's a little bit cost prohibitive, and they
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: when you're double fanning, because what the the process they'll use is a double fan. Boo process isn't as secure even with with fewer pages, for whatever reason. And so what we'll do with
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: things that are less than 60 pages is, we'll create signatures and guard them. So typically a 60 page score, I'll have 3 signatures of
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: 5,
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: 5 pages each, fold them over, and then bind the 3 signatures together and put them into a.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: put them into a pamphlet binder. And if the pamp and and typically these spiral bounds are tend to be larger size scores so they will not fit in the typical pamphlet binders that you're going to buy from either archival supply or what's the other one
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: archival products, archival products and and so we buy actual board, and we cut and make our own custom binders using tivex trips and pre purchase board.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And, by the way somebody did ask about where? Let pamphlet binders. The 2 places that I know of are archival products
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: for a 10 by 13 binder. It costs about 8 bucks each, and they are somewhere. I've got one like nuclear. Here's one.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: actually, this is again. Oh, actually, no, this goes with spiral. Here's something that we could not
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: could not send out because it was printed too close.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And it's more than 60 pages. So this one we sewed into an archival product, spiral binder because they have that or and no. An archival products. Spine, wrap, binder, cause that cool spine, wrap thing which sticks really easily covers the sewing
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that we use to sew the spiral in and and then we just added one of our usual pockets.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: To put the parts in
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: anyhow.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: those those are the archival products binders, the Gaylord binders, which are the other kind
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that we use, and these are the ones that we use the most of, because they're a lot cheaper a 10 by 13 was like 3 bucks when we buy them in bulk, which we do.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And since we're buying a lot of them that
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that makes a difference to us. So
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: those are the 2 places that
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I've
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that I've seen, from which I've gotten binders that I could say, oh, yes, I approve this as a conservator and are cost effective. I think there are a couple of other places that make binders, but either they've got problems or they're very expensive.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So that's my binder
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: thing.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Could.
Peter Shirts: Can we go back to the
Peter Shirts: The slide? Yeah, right on.
Peter Shirts: So so those cheaper options?
Peter Shirts: alice was just talking about one of them.
Peter Shirts: which is basically why I put this here. This is what Emory dubs in instead of using but it's it's basically the same thing as as sewing it into that spine wrap binder, but creating a custom
Peter Shirts: boards with the book cloth book cloth wrapped around the spine and then sewing it in so that and another. I I know that. Yeah. Unc. Chapel Hill. They put all their spiral lines in a box.
Peter Shirts: So it'll sit on the shelf. It can still be used and opened. As you know, cause that's the point of the spiral binding right is to make it easy to open and some of the treatments that we do make it less on the shelf, but they don't make it easy to open it. It's not as easy to open anymore. So trying to balance those is difficult. But something needs to be done with the spiral bind, usually
Peter Shirts: And if you wanna read more about spiral binding. I wrote an article about this. I'm posting it in the chat and has more information about spiraling combines. Why, we preserve them. The problems they can be, and some solutions which most of which you've heard already.
Michael Foley: Let me speak a little bit to the spiral binds. Because we've done a little bit of experimentation. And again, here is a specialty. Bind
Michael Foley: and getting the boards to be
Michael Foley: distanced away from the spiral at the correct place is really important. Otherwise you get a book that's not openable. Essentially, you have a much wider joint.
Michael Foley: So what we've done is in our case making. We actually apply another liner inside the case, and therefore it reinforces a wider joint and allows for some stiffness.
Michael Foley: to the the joint and the other thing I found that seems to work, and this is just from a book construction point of view as opposed to a user point of view. But I found a flush case works really well, because you have much less stress on that spiral bound text block so that it's not gonna want to pull out of the case over time.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Oh, yeah, this yeah, like you said, this one's flush.
Katie Risseeuw: This is a pretty this is my slide. So as you can see, we get scores that are rather large, and we do have questions about how they will fit on a stand. But for something like this really large red one
Katie Risseeuw: we obviously had to make a custom binder in house with, you know, blue gray board
Katie Risseeuw: and and that that takes quite a while.
Katie Risseeuw: And then we recently had a collection move with the miniature scores moving into being inner, filed with the regular scores. So
Katie Risseeuw: as you can see from this little photo that was gonna be an issue. So for some that were smaller and had particular issues, or really thick, so ones that we thought would get lost in between the larger scores and either push to the back or just somehow lost in there. We actually put them into
Katie Risseeuw: tieveck pockets that we tape to binders, and we also get most of our almost all of our binders from archival products because they're close to us. They're in Iowa, and they're also employee owned. So we like supporting that
Katie Risseeuw: and so, yeah, just we bought a bunch of like,
Katie Risseeuw: 7 by 9 tievec pockets, and we put them in there. And it was a pretty large project. I think we had actually only pulled about 600 or 700, because when we were looking at all of the Mini scores all at once, before they were inner filed.
Katie Risseeuw: You're
Katie Risseeuw: your evaluation changes in terms of like. Oh, this is little, and then you put it, you know, next to something else. And you're like, Oh, my God! This is really big compared to this other one. So you know, if if there are issues in the stacks. We can go back and
Katie Risseeuw: pull some more and do some some more of the housings. So we might just go up there and check and see how things are. But yeah. So then we put them into a a binder that was about 9 by 12 or or more, so it would have be able to stick out and not get lost among the larger trees.
Katie Risseeuw: Oh, also we have started
Katie Risseeuw: buying some scores that were Pdfs, and we have had actually really good success with printing them out at the Hf group. And
Katie Risseeuw: we. We had about 90 that we sent out so we did them sort of in chunks to make sure that, you know, was getting what we wanted, and we also had to do some preliminary
Katie Risseeuw: not cataloging, but figuring out what should be on the spine before it had actually been catalogued. So we worked really closely with our music catalog or Tomoko and that was, I think, a success.
Peter Shirts: I I do. Wanna point out that before you print out your Pdf scores. You just wanna make sure that the license related to the Pdf. Scores allows
Peter Shirts: the printing of that, since it is making a copy. So you need to make sure that
Peter Shirts: everyone's aware that you're doing this. You know, legally.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: That. And also nowadays a lot of the Pdf. Scores come in with the name of the person who bought it pre printed on the cover, so you may want to check with your acquisitions library, and whether they mind that.
Katie Risseeuw: Ours were originally came in electronically, and they were purchased that way. So it was like, well, we just made sure
Katie Risseeuw: everything looked alright, and that the bindery could print it in the specific sizes that was necessary. So.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. I meant the Pdf comes with the name of the purchaser
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: included on it, and some of them also prevent the Pdf. From being altered. So that was a question we had to decide.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I have one other quick comment about enter filing we with short scores that for some reason, aren't. We do still keep miniature scores separately.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: but we also we buy 9 by 1210 by 13 or 11 by 14 binders. If something is smaller than a 9 by 12, and needs to go on the regular shelving. We'll put it in a 9 by 12 binder, no matter how big. It is because of that problem of getting lost. We don't like cut binders down.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I gotta say
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that book in the picture
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: for the last one. That is this one.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: this is one of those. How many people have the Antonio Vivaldi complete works that has been coming out, and I hear laughter behind me. They're they're just little bit tall for our standardized scores and the paper covers we usually cut. They're just. They're a pain in every way. And in this
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: particular set they came
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: with
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: ingenious.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: imaginative.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: paginate ways to come, put the pages together
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: on the assumption that they were not going to be bound by a library, so that, for instance, this came with
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: this sheet of paper
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: this sheet of paper.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and our student, named Tristan figured out how to attach them all together so that they could all go into one cover and just be the violin cheap, poly part and you could like read it consecutively
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: from bound
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: on a stand.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I just had to show that
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: year left.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: That's tight.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I don't think I have anything else to explore.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: at that.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: This is where I was going to take a John Cage score. That was a chance score, and just throw all the papers up in the air, because we have scores like that, or anthony Braxton has a number of pieces out there I just had a hundred 32 page bound score, and each of the pages could be played in whatever order
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: the performer wanted to play them in, and and that special situation, the the Braxton situation, we actually bound it in the order that it came in
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And determined that if somebody actually wanted to perform it.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: they were going to have to buy their own
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: same thing with. I don't know if anybody remembers. John Adams.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: this is that 10,000 birds
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that came as a hundred 50 separate sheets to be, you know, traded around Ali. We made the same pramatic pragmatic decision with that one. We're a library
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: 150, you know we do. So we do have something that we put on something with parts that says Check, for you know, 4 parts in pocket to to make sure, you know, so that we can.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: They have some kind of reminder. We're not going to be saying check for a hundred 50 separate sheets in this box. So we just bound this sucker.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: oh, yeah, yeah, it's a reference score more or less. Yeah.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: but smaller things
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we will. We have been known to, you know, check for 30 parts in a pocket
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: when it's clear that
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: it can't be used otherwise.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Any other comments that people have, or stories
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: snippets.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: If you are binding a score like that that has random pages that can be played in another order. And you bind it as a reference score. So it's actually bound papers together, so you can't separate the papers
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: just double check with your catalog department, because the way that they come in as separate sheets, and they get cataloged as such. But if you're binding them and putting them on the shelves, and somebody's looking it up and going. Oh, these are all going to be separate sheets. You don't want them going in there and then, tearing out all of the sheets to make it match what the catalog record says
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I couldn't find, because I couldn't remember the name, the score that came as a whole bunch of cards in a card file.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We did put that card file in our recordings, you know, and and weird stuff collection, which is
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Not shelter.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: not accessible shelving.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We did keep that one
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: as it was, of course. Did you also do the thing where you
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: photo talking
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: part and then take the other one out of circulation? So you have an extra device, or
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yes, Katie brought that up. I think
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we have occasionally
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and illegally.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: That may backup
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: scans of something where we are. And I well, I'm not sure about that. Actually
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: did. We decided to. I think we talked about it. But yeah, I know that's and we may.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: That's that's where the the question arises. If you've got something that has 45 separate sheets.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And a sheet is lost.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Do you just keep on buying a new copy every time that happens, or do you not?
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And I think every institution is, gonna have to answer that question
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: for themselves most John case, force, and.
Katie Risseeuw: That sounds like a
Katie Risseeuw: a preservation fair use situation to me.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Let's see Robbie kinda.
Katie Risseeuw: So.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Thing. Yeah.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I also think in this section. And and Hannah Spence just asked the question, I think we can talk about the whole margin thing, and it was a question that came up earlier about what if your gutters aren't big enough?
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And there's always different kinds of solutions when you have spiral bound scores. Sometimes the spiral will actually go through that final bar line. And so you need to make the determination as to whether or not, you know. Are you just going to pamphlet? Bind around this the the spiral bind our rule of thumb the rule of thumb that I have.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and maybe Alice can correct me on it is, if I don't have a quarter inch gutter, it's not going to the commercial binder, because when they bind it.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It's kind of you won't be able to read your your your key signatures or your time signatures on on your odd pages, and and you won't see the final bar line on your even pages. And so we'll figure out different ways of of managing that
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: blasphemy.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Okay? Oh, 90 stories is the card files. Okay.
Michael Foley: Yeah, from a from a margin standpoint as an as a bookbinder, you'd probably want a minimum of 3 eights.
Michael Foley: Because the and oftentimes those papers have to be over sown because they're stiff or they're cross grain, and the adhesive binding won't work.
Michael Foley: But what I would say is
Michael Foley: what I love about the spiral bind is, it's truly a lay flat binding. Once you open it up, and so that I really think that some effort into considering how to preserve that original spiral is gonna pay off from the user end
Michael Foley: rather than changing the binding to preserve it, and then nobody can use it very well.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I think there are 2 reasons for applying a spiral bind. One is because it helps
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: things lay flat. And indeed it's an ideal binding for a score that is not going to a library, and it's just going to be used by a performer. But the other reason that spirals get nowadays applied to bindings is because it's cheap
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and when you've got a 12 page score with a spiral on it.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: there's just no way we're going to maintain that binding, because that'll be this stick instead of this stick, for one thing, and so we just we couldn't afford to shelve many that way. But I absolutely agree with you that the lay flat is is very important.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: plus it's easier to turn a page if it's on a stand.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: if the spiral is the right size.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah.
Mark Coulbourne: A actually, I I think Steve Quintillion might be able to speak to a little bit about that, too, because we we have found here in Maryland
Mark Coulbourne: some spiral binds that are actually acceptable
Mark Coulbourne: to go into the stacks exactly the way they are.
Mark Coulbourne: I do not remember who the producers of these are, of course.
Mark Coulbourne: but Steve might be able to shed some light on that situation.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): I can't remember either. Some of them have very rigid
Steve Quintilian (he/him): covers.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): and then, of course, some of them are like anthologies as opposed to performance editions.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): Which you know a little bit different. Use there.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): and we've gone through I mean a variety of different treatments of these over the years. And I think.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): what have we settled on now, Marcus, in many cases in in housing them in in a in a pocket right? Kind of as is.
Mark Coulbourne: That's exactly right, unless they're stiff enough to to stand on their own. I know some of the ones that come in have in addition to the score, they have rigid plastic covers on the outside.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): Yeah.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Organs.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): And the playability of those again. Just like, just like I think Ken was saying, is is great, that until they until they start to get destroyed over time with you.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah, we get some scores for organists that come in like that, and we just show them as bound, cause you can't do better than that.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): Conductor, conductor scores all conductor scores. Also, I mean ideal. It's really ideal to just have it like that.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): Just.
Mark Coulbourne: Anybody want to take on the best solution.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I think it absolutely depends on what your
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: what your library is. You know it's I. I really don't think there is any one best solution.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So it depends on how much money you've got.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: how you're what kind of you know, whether you're a conservatory or research library, or whatever.
Peter Shirts: I I mean, I think we've been talking about this as we as we go along. It it. There are a number of possible solutions. The solution works best for you is the one that you can afford and and the one that
Peter Shirts: you know really
Peter Shirts: can can handle the use that that your students are are giving? So if you are, gonna we talk about budget advocacy here. I think it is helpful. We we do have, you know. So Alice is. Well, we'll get this in a second. But Alice isn't
Peter Shirts: leading the the of Music Preservation committee of Music Library Association, and if if you need help, like advocating, you know, she's a she's a great solution there. We also have a Music Advocacy Board, which is slightly different. But
Peter Shirts: having examples of what you have on your shelf and the damage that happens to it, or examples of the use of scores can be really helpful. But if you need somebody from an outside institution to to provide those examples, if you don't have those. Then, you know, that's the time to reach out to somebody here one of the panelists, and, or, you know, reach out to to Alison the preservation Committee.
Peter Shirts: To to get get those examples and to show what we do need some sort of preservation solution for these. The scores that are on the shelve, and I know it can be difficult, because sometimes the the preservation, or you know the pamphlet binding whatever can cost more than the scores or a significant, you know, fraction of the scores. So.
Peter Shirts: But in the end, you know, if you wanted to last, then then you'll need those.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah, the the other thing I would add to that is the
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: To determine your best solution, you're going to have to determine.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: what are the most important things you have to be protected, and that will factor into your budget considerations which will then factor into what type of solutions you want to use. You may not. Yeah. I mean most. I would assume that most libraries don't have the resources to bind everything, and so
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: talk to the professors, figure out what they're using and what the students will be using, and make those a priority and then go from there.
Mark Coulbourne: Michael.
Mark Coulbourne: since you have outside customers in addition to the ones inside the Uc. System.
Mark Coulbourne: what are your recommendations when customers come to you?
Mark Coulbourne: And they are looking to consider preserving the materials, preserving the scores, and also being able to do so at a budget con in a budget. Conscious way.
Michael Foley: I think there's not a whole lot of difference between what we see and you see in terms of music, binding and its challenges than than other schools. You can certainly build a a clam shell case. Make box. That's probably one of the best solutions just to keep it in an enclosure and and protected
Michael Foley: when it comes to. Then binding or reformatting that physical copy.
Michael Foley: It's gonna cost money. It's gonna it's it takes time and materials because they're all custom. They're different sizes. You're you're basically talking about materials that's non uniform in size and how to consolidate that.
Michael Foley: I think that we? I've seen a lot of imperfect solutions in terms of binding that we've produced.
Michael Foley: And
Michael Foley: so it's takes a commitment by the customer to say, you know, this is our investment. And this is what we're gonna have to contend with.
Michael Foley: I mean doing nothing is doing nothing.
Michael Foley: So that I think the prioritization of what needs to be done, you know, needs to be at your forefront, but you certainly don't want to have shelves and materials that's are just left unbound. I wouldn't think. And then out of circulation. So that's the advocacy part
Michael Foley: that needs to be
Michael Foley: strengthened. I believe I mean, I heard a lot of comments about low budget and cheap, and I would just say, You know, this is a crafts, and it's not cheap.
Michael Foley: And you know, just as you buy a car and you take it into the dealer.
Michael Foley: You don't just buy a car and leave it alone. You. You have to figure. You've got maintenance every 6 months or every year, and it costs money.
Michael Foley: so yeah, there's no perfect solution, mark.
Michael Foley: I know it's a challenge.
Mark Coulbourne: Thank you, Michael and I, and I know once again is our only commercial binder. Here you've had some interesting situations.
Mark Coulbourne: That you have encountered with music scores over the years. Would you like to speak to some of those? Because I think we've been. You've been hearing some we. We've seen some in house solutions for some of these, but I would love to hear some commercial binding solutions for some of these
Mark Coulbourne: unusual music scores that we've
Mark Coulbourne: encounter.
Michael Foley: I. You know, I think that I would say we're having
Michael Foley: the salute as is as a solution what I like, and as someone who builds books.
Michael Foley: to really consider the spiral bind and putting a hardcover around it and making that some type of standard product that can be produced.
Michael Foley: That's one. And then the second piece is the idea of reformatting these.
Michael Foley: Again, I would say, indesign is is a wonderful tool for that. You could even take a Pdf. And you can organize those pages and separate them as single images, so that if you need to scale that
Michael Foley: for an 11 by 17 sheet, because I do recognize 12 by 18 is not
Michael Foley: a common size.
Michael Foley: and even at a 12 by 18 you just get a 4 page spread. You don't get an 8 page signature or anything bigger than that. So
Michael Foley: but you know, if you can think about the idea, 4 page
Michael Foley: that that sew together, or or stitch together on the saddle, you get that open, flat design.
Michael Foley: There were comments here about legalese copyright and things like that that has to be considered within all of that.
Michael Foley: So it's kind of dicey, but I would think we stand firm on that fair use policy. I mean, you have a you have a printed piece that you can't use. You can't use it.
Michael Foley: So what's the purpose of having a library, you know, if you can't even loan it out, you know, or people can't read it, because there's no binding margin, so
Michael Foley: does that help mark.
Mark Coulbourne: It does. Thank you, Michael. And actually, one of the questions that came in specifically for you
Mark Coulbourne: was, does your operation offer casement, clam shells or another can enclosure.
Michael Foley: Well, yes, we do. The case make box I I think hf, group has case make machines library. Congress has them. So they're scalable. With a spiral line, for example, you you know you have those differentiated different thicknesses, and you could put padding in there to accommodate
Michael Foley: it the items, so that it's not really just flopping around inside the enclosure. So you know, that case May can be modified. I think that's a that's a good solution for probably 15 to $20.
Michael Foley: You could get that done.
Mark Coulbourne: Thanks so much, Michael.
Mark Coulbourne: Right? Well, we are at 2, 30, and we have 21 open questions.
Mark Coulbourne: So it's a few more than I was actually expecting to see. But you know
Mark Coulbourne: we can start to make some dents in here. I know we were going to plan to offer some
Mark Coulbourne: materials at the end of this.
Mark Coulbourne: And I don't know
Mark Coulbourne: how many of these questions have already been answered
Mark Coulbourne: on.
Mark Coulbourne: So please forgive me. I'm reading through these.
Mark Coulbourne: And so I I saw it put a couple of things into the chat in or into the questions, and one of them, is a is something that the associate Dean that I work for has brought up a number of times.
Mark Coulbourne: which is moving towards like an ipad device for music scores for students.
Mark Coulbourne: I'm really curious if anybody has actually seen these
Mark Coulbourne: in action, or whether you're seeing them in your libraries.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We haven't used them in our library. I know we certainly have faculty and students
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: who use them.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I'm actually in conversation. There's a
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and Peter knows about this. The the electronic scores working group of the Music Library Association is starting to talk about
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: solutions for library as opposed to individual
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: licensing
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: of music. And
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: one of the
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: kind of
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we're we're looking particularly at working with self-publishing composers and tiny publishers, because larger publishers
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: are no doubt going to come up with their own solutions, for which we'll have to pay through the nose. But in any case.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: yeah, actual electronic use of electronic scores
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: is finally starting to happen. It took a lot longer than kind of than I expected it to. But there are now, you know big tablets and and page turn programs and various kinds of
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: options. With that it it comes for libraries. However, it comes back to the licensing, which mostly doesn't exist yet.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and that's something we're hoping to do, something about.
Peter Shirts: Yeah, there's
Peter Shirts: usually for things like that. We have to rely on publish, as I know, encoders doing this where they you can.
Peter Shirts: You know, purchase a monthly membership, and then you'll have access to their library. And they've already done all the licensing libraries. Typically, don't have
Peter Shirts: a way of really licensing that many
Peter Shirts: scores and putting them on an ipad. So I don't. I don't think anytime soon libraries are going to be lending out ipads with music on it. The other problem with that is the preservation. Right? You know, we're we're here to preserve things, and if you put something on ipad and circulate that you're not. We're not preserving it really. the digital you know, if we do have a digital score. I know there are some libraries out there, not that many who
Peter Shirts: are able, through their license, to to purchase a score and put it behind a paywall or not. Paywall.
Peter Shirts: yeah. Authentication authentication. So you can. You know, only people in that institution are able to get to it. We still are interested in preserving that, you know. That's that's still a preservation question. Which is why some people
Peter Shirts: digital preservation is hard that way. It's some. It's actually easier just to print it out and put on the shelf. It's more likely to stay preserved that way. For a number of reasons which we won't talk about here. But yeah, licensing is the big big problem. There.
Mark Coulbourne: Awesome. So there are some other questions in here, too, and I once again I I apologize if someone is already taking care of these or not. But one of them is, I'm being asked if there's a company that provides shelf ready scores already labeled. And do you know of any.
Katie Risseeuw: Seems like a No.
Katie Risseeuw: yeah, from all of us.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: If there was one.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: No, I I'm not a cataloger or an acquisitions person. It. It's possible that there is, and we just don't know about them.
Mark Coulbourne: This one comes in. What to do if your gutter is too narrow.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: One thing is to sew a spiral into a cover, just like Mark was saying, or, you know, find some way to put a spiral bind into a cover. Those are mostly the ones that have the margins that are too narrow. Gonna see?
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: no, I don't. I guess we we are not going to have our our spokes model binder. Katie is a very careful person, and is, and is approaching her binding in a different way than I would
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: so so, but that margin is pretty narrow. But using the the stick on that, the water activated glue tape, which is, I believe, 3 quarters of an inch wide. Yeah, that's 3 eights of an inch. That gives you enough margin. It'll it'll just cover the holes, but it won't cover the music unless the holes are actually, you know, punched through the music
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: which has been known to happen and and that's where you start sewing it into the binder again.
Mark Coulbourne: Thank you. I actually think that answered a couple of questions. Not just that one.
Mark Coulbourne: So I think we can use
Mark Coulbourne: of.
Mark Coulbourne: So
Mark Coulbourne: oh, Alice, could you show the hinged binding again at the end that you guarded.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: The hinge binding at the end. That I oh, oh, so a guarded item.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I'm not sure. Oh, we can.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah, you know, I forgot to pull that out I will say, and on the very last screen of the presentation is a picture of the book that I wrote that has pictures of, like all of this stuff.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And it's it's not cheap. It's like a hundred bucks. But, on the other hand,
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: it does have like it has pretty much an answer to all of the questions that have been asked. And also
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: 6 week summer binding course starts on June 20, ninth. And again.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: it's made to both answer all of that kind of question, and also approach that. So what is the best solution by figuring out, what is the best solution for my library?
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Cause. Both of those are important.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Page 2, Hector
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and I will say about the folio shelving. Yeah, I think the company that we bought ours from, which is what's in that that picture, Estis? I think it was. And I don't think they did make that anymore. But we have had luck in the past by just going to someplace that fabricates things and saying, make something that looks like this. And they do
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: it's harder to find nowadays, because, you know, everything's been outsourced overseas. But there are companies that will, just like, you know, bend the metal and put the holes in it so you can screw it into place, and that might be something to look at for folio shelving.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: This is a guarded
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: a a a 2 pages guarded together, and what they'll what I'll what I'll have with these 2 pages darted together. You can see the tape going down the middle, then they'll be folded
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: as, and then we nest them. So we pay attention to the pagination and whatnot, and nest them into a signature, and it and at that point we
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: ready. So that's what a guarded
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: once once they're guarded and in signatures. Then we put a cover sheet over the top of it.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and we sew right through the saddle.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So that's what a guarded
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: page
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and finished product would look like at the end, and then stuck in a binder, and and you can either sew them into binders or a lot of the binders that you can pre buy now, have glue strips that are water activated as well, so you can just sew it straight into your cover sheet and then adhesive into your binder, or you can sew it directly into the binder.
Mark Coulbourne: Okay, Michael.
Mark Coulbourne: we were going to act. We're going to share a video, real quick of a reinforced case for spiral binding.
Mark Coulbourne: So, Michael, you should have the ability to share your screen.
Michael Foley: Okay.
Michael Foley: let's see, let's share that one.
Michael Foley: And
Michael Foley: let's see if this works. I think I can just click onto it.
Michael Foley: And I think?
Michael Foley: so this is going through our glue machine, and you can see the spine liner on the right hand side has a separate liner that's already been preatted.
Michael Foley: So this is again for a spiral case with a
Michael Foley: so that will reinforce the wide
Michael Foley: joint
Michael Foley: that is needed for a spiral
Michael Foley: that reinforce joint right there
Michael Foley: and then. It's just fashioned like a standard case. We cut the corners and turn them in
Michael Foley: there at 60
Michael Foley: standard case, fifth corners
Michael Foley: fit in.
Michael Foley: Go
Michael Foley: press.
Michael Foley: leather.
Michael Foley: nice job.
Mark Coulbourne: That's awesome, Michael. Thank you so much for sharing that.
Michael Foley: You're welcome.
Mark Coulbourne: So I thought really quickly. I read through a couple of comments that are in here as well.
Mark Coulbourne: So one of them says I'm new to my position, and I inherited instructions.
Mark Coulbourne: said, to use music binding, but now I can't, so I'm not sure what it was before. But thank you.
Mark Coulbourne: Another comment from
Mark Coulbourne: says I recommend the Uc. Binary as an option. They work with folks outside of the University of California system
Mark Coulbourne: on.
Mark Coulbourne: Has someone else commented, that we've had experiences
Mark Coulbourne: with items in our collections that have been stiffened, that the hinges deteriorate because of the extra bulk rather quickly, even when taped.
Mark Coulbourne: There was another one in here, just from a shelving issue. Spiral bound materials can be much fatter at the spine than the fore edge.
Mark Coulbourne: and so shelving a bunch of them together is a possible issue. They can entangle. Sometimes
Mark Coulbourne: the plastics and the comb bindings can embrittle and fall to fall pieces. Fun! Fun!
Mark Coulbourne: I am. Oh, and Michael, here's a question directly for you. How is the spiral bound item attached to the case?
Michael Foley: So the end sheets are tipped onto the front cover and we can reinforce that front cover as need be, with some tie, back tape or something like that, because that's where the stress will be. W, that that could potentially be the weakest part where the end sheet is tipped onto
Michael Foley: the
Michael Foley: the first page or cover of the spiral bind
Michael Foley: And while I'm speaking there was one question I saw about cockling there in the chat, and I think that that has a lot to do with the paper grain and the paper itself, and maybe the grain of the tape you're using. But if they are going in opposite directions, you will oftentimes get that cockling or that rippling across the spine, and it's it's hard to it's, and that's why. Oftentimes things will go to over. So, because that cockling will indicate that the gluing won't hold well over time.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I will have to admit that over, son. Items will not stay open on a stand. They just they they close themselves. That's what they're made to do. They're made to be stuck together.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: so that overso is is a good little last ditch solution for books. But it actually won't make music that is usable on a stand.
Michael Foley: That's correct, Alice. Thank you.
Mark Coulbourne: So I I think here's a question that could go to just about anybody in this group. So we'll allow time for everyone to respond, how much input do you have from your music faculty and students, both binding practices and what's likely to circulate
Mark Coulbourne: and priorities within the collection?
Mark Coulbourne: Not sure who wants to go first.
Mark Coulbourne: I'm a.
Katie Risseeuw: Little fish, so I don't hear anything.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): I'll jump in for a second. Yeah, as a as a music cataloger. I'm very
Steve Quintilian (he/him): frequently communicating with the circus staff
Steve Quintilian (he/him): and kind of liaising between circulation and and preservation on
Steve Quintilian (he/him): usually the weird stuff you know, how do we deal with this thing that comes through? So yeah, it's a great question is, and it's really important. And I think it's much easier to get an in front of issues. So you know, I I find it often, if I have a question I'll I'll bring it up, you know. So it's easier to to do that than to fix a problem, you know, that comes back to us.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I think our experiences that from students we mostly hear. How fast can I get this yet? We go back and forth a lot with the circulation staff. There are a few faculty people who do take more of an interest, and in certainly there are also students that are curious about. How can I bind my music so that it's like these nice pamphlet binders I get out of the library. We get some of that.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: On the whole. Our users, I think, tend to just like accept things as bound.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I think that's partly because we put a lot of thought and energy into making it so that they will work as bound.
Mark Coulbourne: Thank you all. Another question. Has anyone used wire binders from archival products for larger pieces?
Mark Coulbourne: And what do you think of these?
Mark Coulbourne: Dan, you're
Mark Coulbourne: but you're muted
Mark Coulbourne: okay. We weren't.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Think.
Mark Coulbourne: Okay? So I I guess none of us have an opinion on that, or none of none of us have used them so fair enough. Does anyone still sell
Mark Coulbourne: that folio shelving that was in the picture on one on a previous slide? I can't find a vendor for it. This is.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: That was the one where I said that that one on the previous slide, the vendor was Este's.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I don't think they sell it anymore. But you probably could find somebody. If you're in a city
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that would actually fabricate to your direction and
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: given that, there's
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: limits to how much folio shelving you're going to be using.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It's probably
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: the most cost effective solution. I've been noticing also in the common section that people are using map drawers and and and shoving those things horizontally, which is another solution.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: fact, we do do.
Mark Coulbourne: What kind of paper is best kept in the antique binding. Again.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I'm not sure
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: is that for reformatting old scores.
Mark Coulbourne: That's all the information.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah, they might, if they ask anything else.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we have. We? We buy ivory covered ivory colored paper, and 70 pound weight
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: for reprinting older scores cause people kind of like to see that ivory color, even though in the original older score. That was because of that damage. But it looks nice.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: But the 70 pound weight
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: of and that is of like offset text paper.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Works well.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It's thick enough for music.
Michael Foley: And that's where you'd wanna make sure that paper grain is going in the correct direction right.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yep, actually for our for the things that we print out on. Oh, come on now!
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: 11 by 17 paper, and folded in half. Oh, here it is for this site we buy special we what we buy paper special for that, because if you just go to the store and get 11 by 17 paper. It's gonna have the grain running this way, and that's the wrong way. You wanna have the green run with the spine. The reason for that is, that paper would prefer to fold with the grain.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: it it really it doesn't. I'm kind of forcing it to fold this way, and it doesn't want to. It wants to fold this way, and that's the way we're folding it. So it is worth the extra money we occasionally do bind like pamphlet bind scores that we get from self publishing composers where the grain is running the wrong direction. Usually they're short.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: They get a little Ripley. They'll probably have noisier page turns.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: But it's not a problem to the point where we're willing to like. Scan it and reprint it.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: but you can tell the difference.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We also with scores or books, you know, if we're deciding whether to send them to the binder
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: every once in a while there will be a score book. I hold it like this, and it flops over because the grain was printed the wrong way.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It's it's pretty noticeable and kind of amusing.
Michael Foley: So if you were to purchase
Michael Foley: 1117 paper from Amazon, or something
Michael Foley: you would look for something that's either designated a short grain or the grain is running along the 11 inches, and that would give you the proper grain for printing. 4 page spreads or or multiple pages on that paper.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Hmm.
Mark Coulbourne: Awesome.
Mark Coulbourne: So we have 2 questions left.
Mark Coulbourne: What are the fewest pieces? Fewest pieces, count. Do you leave unbound in a pocket.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We'll put one piece in a pocket. We'll also put 9 parts in a pocket
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: where and and in fact, pockets can accommodate a lot.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I just did 17 the other day.
Mark Coulbourne: Wow!
Mark Coulbourne: And the last question is, how long to drive the guard.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Depends on how you're guarding.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: If you're using a glue garden, I don't know the exact type of glue we're using. I couldn't. If if you're not using too much glue, it dries really quick. If you're using too much glue, it dries really slow.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Usually, if I'm guarding something, and I start at the top, and I work my way down to the bottom, and, as I, you know, put 2 sheets together, and I put them to one side and I kind of turn them upside down by the time I'm done gluing the last 2 pages together and stick them in my pile, I'm ready to turn the pile over and fold them all in half, one at a time, and by the time I get down to the bottom one it's ready to fold in half.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: so it doesn't take very long.
Mark Coulbourne: Awesome. Thank you. So we are just really close to time. So
Mark Coulbourne: I would like to thank all of our speakers for their valuable time and their expertise.
Mark Coulbourne: and I'd like to thank Kim Norman for all of her help in making the Symposium a reality.
Mark Coulbourne: Also, I would like to thank everyone who has been so supportive at the Symposium and who helped us get the word out.
Mark Coulbourne: Finally, I'd like to thank everyone who came today because well, without all of you. This would just be a discussion among colleagues instead of the wonderful symposium that it was so. We have a few extra minutes. I wanted to leave some few minutes for final words from anyone. Who would like to say a couple of last words.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I'm gonna put my email in the chat.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Just in case anybody wants to get in touch with me.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Alice wrote the book. So if you have questions.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: ask Alice.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: There.
Michael Foley: I have a question for Alice with that oversized piece. Do you also provide an oversize music stand.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: No. And yeah, there's there are a couple that I
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I haven't seen them in use, so I do not know what they do. I suppose you'd like prop it against the piano or something.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Sometimes we put
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: like
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: post like post the board like kind of this sort of stuff
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: right here.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It's kind of got that phone the same. Yeah, we sometimes would cut out
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: something to help
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: put multiple stands together. And.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: you know, put enough reinforcement so that it doesn't topple over. But
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: yeah, sometimes, too, we well.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I will say what we do. Sometimes we will take the score, make photocopies and just
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: put a bunch of them on one of these poster boards and put it on the stand
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: so that way. We don't even have to turn pages.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It depends on how big the score is, though, so but obviously we throw those photocopies out.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and when we're done and return the score without markings. So that's in pristine.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: says a percussionist. Who's who? I just noticed their pencil marks from 15 years ago on a score that I just bound.
Mark Coulbourne: Alright, Michael! Any final thoughts.
Michael Foley: No, thank you for inviting me. I I I appreciate all the interest in music binding. I play guitar myself, so
Michael Foley: I have a personal stake in the issue.
Michael Foley: Thank you, Mark.
Mark Coulbourne: Steve.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): This has been super informative for me. I learned a lot from from being here. Thanks for thanks for having me and Alice and Dan, I'll be up
Steve Quintilian (he/him): in your neck of the woods this summer. My partner is from up there.
Steve Quintilian (he/him): Great.
Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Because of heat.
Mark Coulbourne: Katie.
Katie Risseeuw: I just want to say that music binding is
Katie Risseeuw: you. You can use a lot of creativity with it. And yes, some things are frustrating. But it's also really fun to tell stories about like at a party, and and hope that people don't walk away from you. But yeah, it's just it's it's fun. And yes, some things don't work right. And you're sort of limited by
Katie Risseeuw: what we have. As you know, something that needs to circulate and be used for people. Preservation is access. So yeah, it's fun to sort of compare it to other things we do in the library for different collections. And yeah, it's just creative.
Mark Coulbourne: Peter.
Peter Shirts: Just, I guess, to say that it's the library. So no one's it's the stakes. Aren't that high, really, you know.
Peter Shirts: But but you know, in in in other ways, to preserve
Peter Shirts: for the future generations. You know that that's also important.
Mark Coulbourne: I I agree. Thank you, Peter Kim. Any final thoughts.
Kim Norman: Yeah, Mark, I'm sure we all want to thank you for bringing this group together, planning the whole thing. And it's just been terrific. So all thanks to you.
Mark Coulbourne: Well, thank you all very, very much.
Mark Coulbourne: This has been a terrific terrific opportunity. I'm really happy. We could get everyone together for this. So I'm going to go ahead and stop recording now. I will say that the recording
Mark Coulbourne: probably will take a few days to get processed.
Mark Coulbourne: And I hope to have it in the digital repository by the end of the week.
Mark Coulbourne: But I will make sure to let everyone know once that takes place, and I will be taking a copy of the slides and turning them into a Pdf
Mark Coulbourne: so that they can be shared.