WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.658 --> 00:00:16.027 Mark Coulbourne: So on behalf of the Preservation Administrators Interest Group and the Preservation Committee of the Music Library Association. I would like to welcome you. 2 00:00:16.318 --> 00:00:21.547 Mark Coulbourne: My name is Mark Colborne and I, along with Kim Norman, are the co-chairs of Paige. 3 00:00:22.638 --> 00:00:33.447 Mark Coulbourne: Today we are going to have 3 separate discussions with time for questions and answers at the end of each discussion, and there will be time at the end for questions as well. 4 00:00:33.965 --> 00:00:38.948 Mark Coulbourne: I'm going to put. I'm going to drop a link for the detailed schedule into the chat here just a moment. 5 00:00:39.450 --> 00:00:43.237 Mark Coulbourne: But before I do, we have a little bit of housekeeping before we get started. 6 00:00:43.991 --> 00:00:47.877 Mark Coulbourne: If you have questions, please add them to the QA. Section. 7 00:00:47.998 --> 00:00:50.898 Mark Coulbourne: And if you have comments, please put those into chat. 8 00:00:51.138 --> 00:00:54.777 Mark Coulbourne: Additionally, if you hadn't noticed already, we are recording this symposium 9 00:00:55.008 --> 00:01:00.998 Mark Coulbourne: and it will be placed onto the University of Maryland Digital Repository in the next few days. 10 00:01:01.448 --> 00:01:07.097 Mark Coulbourne: Once the recording is uploaded, we will send out to links to it, using the same distribution list 11 00:01:07.148 --> 00:01:11.088 Mark Coulbourne: and discussion boards where we had been posting about the symposium. 12 00:01:11.378 --> 00:01:19.277 Mark Coulbourne: So without further ado, I will let Kim Norman introduce our speakers and present their bios. 13 00:01:20.578 --> 00:01:29.107 Kim Norman: Hi, everyone! Our symposium speakers today in alphabetical order are Alice Carly. Give a wave. Alice. 14 00:01:29.258 --> 00:01:49.807 Kim Norman: who literally wrote the book on Binding and care of printed Music, published by AR. Editions for the Music Library Association. Alice is the Conservator Sibley Music Library at the Eastman School of Music of the University of Rochester, and she currently Chairs, the Preservation Committee of the Music Library Association. 15 00:01:49.988 --> 00:02:00.338 Kim Norman: Alice has taught an annual summer course at Eastman in hands-on music binding and preservation for the past 20 years, and can still welcome new students this coming summer. 16 00:02:00.858 --> 00:02:02.837 Kim Norman: Next, Michael Foley 17 00:02:04.068 --> 00:02:25.438 Kim Norman: is the manager of the University of California Library bindery, and has over 20 years of service to the department. The Uc. Library Bindery was established in 1908, and is charged to service the print materials held in Uc. Library collections. The department also provides library binding services to other schools in higher education. Situated in the West. 18 00:02:25.528 --> 00:02:45.488 Kim Norman: Michael arrived at Uc. With close to 20 years of experience, working for commercial printing and bookbinding operations in the private sector. Those work experiences have given Michael a full understanding of the machinery, the material and the craftsmanship necessary to equip an operation designated to Service library print collections. 19 00:02:46.188 --> 00:02:47.618 Kim Norman: Dan Lapata 20 00:02:48.358 --> 00:03:18.208 Kim Norman: is the library is the binary supervisor at Sibley music library with degrees in both music and library science. Dan joined Sibley in 2012 to supervise an Neh. Scanning and publishing project for over 20,000 free public domain scores from Sibley's collection. These scores may be accessed through the link. You are research.rochester.edu, and also mirrored on this link. 21 00:03:18.208 --> 00:03:21.038 Kim Norman: IMSL. p.com. 22 00:03:21.268 --> 00:03:44.447 Kim Norman: Dan moved into the position of Bindery Supervisor after the Neh project, and is responsible for third party procedures, such as commercial binding and deacidification practices. He also oversees the in-house pamphlet binding process primarily done by student workers. Dan is also a prolific basis and plays regularly around the Rochester New York region. 23 00:03:45.788 --> 00:03:47.318 Kim Norman: Steve Quintillion 24 00:03:47.458 --> 00:04:04.637 Kim Norman: is the music cataloging coordinator at University of Maryland. He either performs or oversees all the music cataloging at Umd, including scores sound recordings and video. Steve has a degree in music and is a performing guitarist, vocalist and teaching artists. 25 00:04:04.638 --> 00:04:19.767 Kim Norman: If you walk by his house in Gaithersburg, Maryland that he shares with his partner Juliet. You hear him? You may hear him through an open window playing their Yamaha Baby Grand, or see their elderly, stubborn dachshund in the front yard. 26 00:04:20.748 --> 00:04:22.368 Kim Norman: Katie pursue 27 00:04:22.488 --> 00:04:38.888 Kim Norman: is the preservation librarian at Northwestern University libraries. She supervises, she supervises preventative conservation activities, including environmental monitoring commercial binding nasty acidification, preservation, assessments, collection, care of general collections. 28 00:04:38.918 --> 00:04:41.678 Kim Norman: audio visual preservation, and more. 29 00:04:41.758 --> 00:04:50.407 Kim Norman: Katie is involved with the La Ala Preservation Outreach Committee, and focuses on training and public facing as well as internal outreach. 30 00:04:51.458 --> 00:05:09.978 Kim Norman: And finally, last, but not least, Peter Shirts is the music and dance librarian for Emory libraries at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. Peter has published research on a number of topics, including music, preservation, open access, and streaming media. Welcome to all our wonderful symposium speakers. 31 00:05:21.318 --> 00:05:24.507 Mark Coulbourne: One moment, and I'm going to put the presentation up. 32 00:05:40.998 --> 00:05:43.194 Katie Risseeuw: Hello! All. I guess I'm up first. 33 00:05:43.588 --> 00:06:00.429 Katie Risseeuw: My name is Katie Rasu, as they said, and I just at the very beginning of this, we all just wanted to go through our our respective institutions and just give a little overview of where we're coming from and the size of our organizations. And 34 00:06:01.578 --> 00:06:15.877 Katie Risseeuw: kind of what impacts our binding. So a Northwestern university has a very strong music school. And to support that our music collections focus on post 1945. 35 00:06:16.388 --> 00:06:42.897 Katie Risseeuw: We have about 300,000 total circulating music items and almost 10,000 acquisitions per year. We also have a number of audio visual materials, rare books and archives. The materials audio visual materials are mostly from archival collections, and also include decades of performance recordings from the Beanon school of music. 36 00:06:43.782 --> 00:06:51.973 Katie Risseeuw: We currently only have one fte cataloger and we have 37 00:06:53.448 --> 00:07:13.768 Katie Risseeuw: here and there we do have an acquisitions, music cataloger and so obviously, that does impact what we have in the backlog and what we're able to do, which in turn affects what we can do in preservation, and how much we have coming in. So in total, there's 38 00:07:14.145 --> 00:07:34.140 Katie Risseeuw: in terms of a full time equivalent it's very small for what our preservation folks are doing so that includes processing for the binding, for the bindery, and also some of the in house work we do, and it's split between conservation lab folks, and then also our preservation. 39 00:07:34.638 --> 00:07:36.508 Katie Risseeuw: folks. 40 00:07:37.007 --> 00:07:41.798 Katie Risseeuw: so that's basically all I have for Northwestern. Next up. 41 00:07:46.438 --> 00:08:13.468 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Hi Sibley Music Library is part of the Eastman School of Music. It supports the Eastman School of Music, so it's kind of the opposite of most academic libraries. At Sibley there are 3 floors of music, and then, if you go at the back of one of the floors. There are, I think, 2 shelf ranges of everything that is not an M. 42 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:31.565 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So that we have a whole lot of music holdings. I was. Dan and I were both amazed to see how much uncataloged stuff we still have. I mean, we know how hard the catalogers have been working on stuff that it's possible that that's out of date. But anyway, 43 00:08:32.748 --> 00:08:45.288 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: most of what we acquire, therefore, are scores. And I will note that a lot of what we get is gifts as well, because 44 00:08:45.398 --> 00:08:51.717 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we're just one of the places that if somebody has a music collection they'll and you know that that they want to 45 00:08:51.778 --> 00:09:05.757 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: park someplace. I know our library director kind of fans off gifts with both hands, but I think in a recent year at the Acquisitions department processed 15,000 gifts. 46 00:09:06.208 --> 00:09:27.797 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: so it it really does. Impact our work flow in terms of dealing with older materials, even when they're new to us. So we have 3 full time finding and preservation employees, and also some student workers who mostly work with the new bindings. Dan, anything you wanna add. 47 00:09:28.158 --> 00:09:35.609 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I I wrote the slide. You said the slide. No, we're good. So next. 48 00:09:40.098 --> 00:09:45.767 Steve Quintilian (he/him): Hey? I'm Steve Quintillion. I'm the music cataloger at the University of Maryland. 49 00:09:47.668 --> 00:09:55.131 Steve Quintilian (he/him): yeah, we have a large music library to support our very strong music school here at 50 00:09:57.578 --> 00:10:02.117 Steve Quintilian (he/him): our system also supports. We're the largest music library in 51 00:10:02.448 --> 00:10:06.908 Steve Quintilian (he/him): the consortium of Maryland universities, and so 52 00:10:07.018 --> 00:10:13.338 Steve Quintilian (he/him): many of the other institutions, you know, rely on our on our collection here as well. 53 00:10:13.638 --> 00:10:15.198 Steve Quintilian (he/him): The Performing Arts library is 54 00:10:15.278 --> 00:10:21.678 Steve Quintilian (he/him): kind of full at this point, so we we have moved a number of things like their oversize collection to 55 00:10:21.828 --> 00:10:27.018 Steve Quintilian (he/him): off-site housing. I'm kind of here as moral support as a cataloger 56 00:10:27.038 --> 00:10:44.128 Steve Quintilian (he/him): and a musician to apologize to all of my colleagues for the stuff that we sent you. All this all the weird things that inevitably I'm I'm downstairs talking to my colleagues to Mark and others about weird stuff that that shows up and 57 00:10:44.629 --> 00:10:50.158 Steve Quintilian (he/him): so I'm here to talk about. And you know things related to to cataloging and the performance of music. 58 00:10:50.479 --> 00:10:52.587 Steve Quintilian (he/him): Mark, you, wanna jump in with anything. 59 00:10:54.028 --> 00:10:56.397 Mark Coulbourne: You've done an excellent job. Thank you, Steve. 60 00:10:57.808 --> 00:10:58.418 Steve Quintilian (he/him): Thanks. 61 00:11:11.198 --> 00:11:12.558 Mark Coulbourne: Peter, you're up next. 62 00:11:17.648 --> 00:11:18.458 Mark Coulbourne: Hey. 63 00:11:18.648 --> 00:11:20.078 Mark Coulbourne: Peter, are you. 64 00:11:20.698 --> 00:11:21.923 Peter Shirts: Okay. Can you hear me now? 65 00:11:22.338 --> 00:11:23.088 Mark Coulbourne: Yes. 66 00:11:23.088 --> 00:11:31.628 Peter Shirts: Okay. Sorry about that. That was a little strange. So I'm here representing the medium institutions. 67 00:11:32.088 --> 00:11:40.501 Peter Shirts: here, we we catalog or so. We have about 50,000 physical scores here at Emory. It's it's kind of a smaller music 68 00:11:40.888 --> 00:11:42.228 Peter Shirts: program with 69 00:11:42.968 --> 00:11:47.728 Peter Shirts: and we we only have about 500 new scores a year, and also we. We don't have our own 70 00:11:47.838 --> 00:12:06.237 Peter Shirts: preservation department for music. It's a centralized preservation department. And music is only part of their job. And and actually, a lot of the preservation has happened through cataloging and and most of the preservation assessments, unless it's really A weird item is handled 71 00:12:06.238 --> 00:12:22.177 Peter Shirts: by students after being, you know, taught how to do it. And and we actually don't have a full time music catalog, or we have a we we have a vendor. Who who's a person? Lynn Jaffe, who mo does most of our cataloging or original cataloging, anyway. 72 00:12:23.248 --> 00:12:25.477 Peter Shirts: so that's that's where we are at, Emory. 73 00:12:25.528 --> 00:12:26.988 Peter Shirts: The medium folks. 74 00:12:33.788 --> 00:12:47.548 Michael Foley: Hello, everyone good to see you all here. My input. Here, I think, is going to be limited, and I think what I can speak to, though, is my observations over the last 75 00:12:47.558 --> 00:13:03.578 Michael Foley: 20 years really about music binding in and of itself, and one is that it is a specialized field in library binding. You have scores and parts, for example, that need to be preserved and maintained as a set 76 00:13:03.999 --> 00:13:12.777 Michael Foley: and if one of those pieces goes away then, that certainly diminishes the value to the patrons for those music sets. 77 00:13:13.194 --> 00:13:40.671 Michael Foley: We see things with limited margins and binding often. And how how does a book binder deal with that? Pamphlets seem to be a very good solution because you're not actually, you. You're just enclosing the original items in a pamphlet. But as we have heard, some of these items are old and worn, and one way that we've dealt with that here at the library is 78 00:13:41.048 --> 00:13:56.169 Michael Foley: is digitizing them and then outputting them to print. We can take the images and clean them up so that if they're stained, or often darkened over time we can reprint that on a white paper. 79 00:13:57.038 --> 00:13:58.018 Michael Foley: But 80 00:13:58.158 --> 00:14:08.898 Michael Foley: what we've seen is that it really takes time and effort to do all this. I mean the effort is fine, the time runs up costs so as a 81 00:14:09.128 --> 00:14:11.078 Michael Foley: as a 82 00:14:11.848 --> 00:14:19.517 Michael Foley: an aspect of library bindery. In and of itself the music binding can be, I would say, cost prohibitive. 83 00:14:19.608 --> 00:14:32.447 Michael Foley: And so that what what we've seen here at the library bindery is that many solutions are essentially abandoned, and that it seems to be that a lot of the libraries are just assuming that 84 00:14:32.918 --> 00:14:36.968 Michael Foley: by themselves, and using pamphlets as a solution. So 85 00:14:41.618 --> 00:14:48.958 Michael Foley: So you know I'm here, and I'll speak to things as I see them come up and thank you all for coming today. 86 00:15:00.478 --> 00:15:03.007 Mark Coulbourne: Who would like to start with? Why, we buying music. 87 00:15:03.008 --> 00:15:06.187 Peter Shirts: I I think I should start here. So 88 00:15:06.338 --> 00:15:11.352 Peter Shirts: binding music. So I I get a lot of people asking me 89 00:15:12.268 --> 00:15:27.608 Peter Shirts: you know, various very other institutions people within and this comes up every once in a while. Why bind music? And it's probably a question that maybe a lot of your institutions are are asking you, why does music need special treatment? 90 00:15:27.748 --> 00:15:31.717 Peter Shirts: And I think this picture here does a lot to illustrate 91 00:15:31.738 --> 00:15:33.980 Peter Shirts: why, music 92 00:15:34.878 --> 00:15:56.008 Peter Shirts: it is normally just single signature. You know. There, there's a lot of. We'll talk about all the variations, but kind of the the quintessential piece of sheet music is a single signature, and on library shelves they are destroyed just by being on the shelves. They don't sit up straight. 93 00:15:56.198 --> 00:16:01.926 Peter Shirts: They if if left of their own, they'll and we'll have other pictures here. 94 00:16:02.328 --> 00:16:09.677 Peter Shirts: They'll destroy themselves leaning over. If when people check them out, they get destroyed in backpacks. 95 00:16:09.698 --> 00:16:12.458 Peter Shirts: And the other important thing about 96 00:16:13.278 --> 00:16:27.157 Peter Shirts: music is that it's harder to replace. There's not print runs are usually not that long. Now it depends. Sometimes there's some additions that are there forever. But you really have to balance like, how much preservation do I do 97 00:16:27.578 --> 00:16:47.187 Peter Shirts: versus? Do I want to buy this again immediately, or within a year, or whatever. So those are all important things to keep in mind so normally. In order to preserve the life of the object, make sure that it survives not only just standing on the shelves, but 98 00:16:47.308 --> 00:16:51.798 Peter Shirts: circulating. We have to do some sort of preservation treatment. 99 00:16:52.156 --> 00:16:59.618 Peter Shirts: And it really depend, we're going to talk about the the different options about that. Does anyone want to take over anything I missed. 100 00:17:00.678 --> 00:17:01.868 Peter Shirts: Oh, here we go! 101 00:17:07.038 --> 00:17:24.538 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I'd be up to say something open ability since, I mean, and I think there's a a number of us here have have conservatory users so that something that is gonna like stand up on a stand is 102 00:17:24.828 --> 00:17:26.680 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: kind of paramount 103 00:17:28.108 --> 00:17:29.078 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And 104 00:17:30.428 --> 00:17:40.047 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: actually, I'm gonna let others maybe add to that, because I think Peter really covered a lot of the rest. 105 00:17:41.818 --> 00:17:44.778 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I noticed that large formats 106 00:17:44.868 --> 00:17:46.258 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: is a 107 00:17:46.518 --> 00:17:53.388 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: mentioned on there. We're going to see some large formats a little later in this presentation, I think. 108 00:17:53.968 --> 00:17:55.178 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And 109 00:17:55.308 --> 00:17:57.177 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: actually, I'm going to show a sample. 110 00:17:58.508 --> 00:18:03.127 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: can we? Can we? Yeah, let's see. 111 00:18:03.478 --> 00:18:08.648 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: go on here for a minute. This is a pretty trashed score. 112 00:18:09.399 --> 00:18:11.308 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It was given to us 113 00:18:11.368 --> 00:18:19.278 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: as a gift in 1 89. It actually dates from 1, 43. I am amazed that it's not brittle, but it's not 114 00:18:19.845 --> 00:18:31.067 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: so in the past 30 years it is whoops. Now you can see one of the reasons what it has circulated 19 times. 115 00:18:32.928 --> 00:18:33.918 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And 116 00:18:34.628 --> 00:18:41.317 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: the part. And here's one of the things I wanted to show in terms of like how people use music. 117 00:18:41.398 --> 00:18:45.118 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I don't know if you can see that the part has been written all over. 118 00:18:46.818 --> 00:18:57.888 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: interestingly enough, and unusually enough, when we go to rebind this score instead of paying about, we could replace it for 20 bucks. 119 00:18:58.402 --> 00:19:10.728 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: But, on the other hand, we can rebind it for the cost of the new binder which we would have to put on the new score, anyway. And I'm actually going to leave the markings, which is 120 00:19:10.788 --> 00:19:39.657 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: real unusual for us in this particular score, because they are really useful performance markings. We mostly do erase markings, which are mostly, you know, the little spectacles to tell you to watch the other players and circled them, measure numbers. And we also erase the analyses, because, you know, we are a university students should be doing this stuff for themselves. 121 00:19:39.658 --> 00:19:48.988 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And we also don't want to see somebody's really bad analysis, you know, like replicated year after year in some theory class. So anyhow. 122 00:19:48.998 --> 00:19:52.497 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I thought that might give a little further. Just look at 123 00:19:53.050 --> 00:19:59.237 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: how music gets used. It's a little different than how books get used in 124 00:19:59.548 --> 00:20:00.968 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: student scholarship. 125 00:20:01.678 --> 00:20:05.368 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I would just add to that with 13 circulations. 126 00:20:05.728 --> 00:20:06.838 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: music. 127 00:20:06.948 --> 00:20:30.767 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: especially pamphlet style. Music is used over and over and over again by the same person as opposed to reading a book where I finished my page, and I've turned the page and I move on. I'm always going back and forth, so there's a lot of wear and tear when it comes to using performing scores. And there's also a lot of wear and tear using study scores as well, which are 128 00:20:30.788 --> 00:20:32.917 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: thicker and tend to be 129 00:20:33.238 --> 00:20:48.767 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: found hardcover and whatnot, because people are listening the same thing over and over again, and they're writing their analysis. And those hard covers as well. So music is used fairly differently than than most other academic books. From my experience. 130 00:20:52.518 --> 00:20:59.447 Michael Foley: I would like to speak a little bit to the slide into the photograph of the slide. And that's an example of a music. 131 00:20:59.578 --> 00:21:00.298 Michael Foley: He's yeah. 132 00:21:00.658 --> 00:21:01.018 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah. 133 00:21:01.018 --> 00:21:21.498 Michael Foley: Yeah, that has been output. It's been scanned and a gray scale. And then through Photoshop. There's some scripts, and after you set up the first couple of pages you can mask out the dark colors, and you can also bring and and enhance the black. 134 00:21:21.498 --> 00:21:42.248 Michael Foley: so that it becomes a very readable piece. One of the things about scans that you can also do is you can also scale them. So, for example, what we're seeing there is a 12 by 18 sheet that's the images were placed a into a booklet format and indesign and then it's printed double sided 135 00:21:42.691 --> 00:21:49.225 Michael Foley: but with something like this you could also scale them to fit on an 1117 image. So 136 00:21:51.218 --> 00:21:58.267 Michael Foley: It takes time and skill to do that. And but I did want to say that there is a solution there 137 00:21:58.847 --> 00:22:05.597 Michael Foley: that can be found for items that are in high use and circulation. 138 00:22:25.328 --> 00:22:28.918 Mark Coulbourne: Hmm, Alice, do? Do we feel like we've covered this particular slide? I can advance. 139 00:22:28.918 --> 00:22:53.077 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: One thing that I would say is that Eastman does also have an ensembles library. We don't have a speaker from that library. It's like a different world. The decisions about what markings you keep and what marking do we race are quite different the way I mean, they store everything as far as I know, in, you know, like big file cabinets, and pull them out 140 00:22:53.188 --> 00:22:56.158 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: to to circulate them. So 141 00:22:56.168 --> 00:23:01.877 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that is one thing that I thought was worth mentioning, though we're not gonna go on from there. 142 00:23:04.968 --> 00:23:06.148 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: New viewers. 143 00:23:18.108 --> 00:23:21.388 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I could talk about that real quick myself. 144 00:23:21.828 --> 00:23:22.828 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah. 145 00:23:23.918 --> 00:23:25.477 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: in one moment. 146 00:23:27.328 --> 00:23:30.627 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Okay. Nope, you need to mute the computer. 147 00:23:31.568 --> 00:23:33.633 Peter Shirts: While while they're waiting to do that. 148 00:23:34.148 --> 00:23:37.488 Peter Shirts: I I just wanna say, go if you go back a slide, mark 149 00:23:41.568 --> 00:23:51.518 Peter Shirts: or not. Okay, that's fine. I was just gonna say for special collections, for special collections. We're not also not really going to be talking about that. The the 150 00:23:51.518 --> 00:24:14.307 Peter Shirts: the needs for music and special collections usually very different. It's not being used in a performative way, it's not being put on a stand, and usually the materials are much more fragile. And so there's gonna be. Usually there's some sort of enclosure that's put on it, or or something in order to just stabilize it, and that that's something else we're not going to be talking about. Sorry. Go ahead, Alice. 151 00:24:14.688 --> 00:24:16.168 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: That's okay. 152 00:24:16.958 --> 00:24:20.927 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I was going to say on on this next slide. You'll see there's 153 00:24:20.948 --> 00:24:24.358 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: a fair amount. That's the same 154 00:24:24.588 --> 00:24:28.667 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: for all of us, at least we all do at least some pamphlet binding 155 00:24:29.431 --> 00:24:39.344 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: looks like we all do at least some commercial binding. We all put some things in boxes, and we all leave some things unbound. 156 00:24:41.618 --> 00:24:50.697 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I'm curious, Peter, when you say, leaving unbound scores with multiple signatures thicker than a quarter of an inch deferred. 157 00:24:50.928 --> 00:24:53.858 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I think I know what that means, but I wanna hear you say it. 158 00:24:54.068 --> 00:24:56.808 Peter Shirts: Sure. Yeah. So there we. 159 00:24:57.138 --> 00:25:14.058 Peter Shirts: we're we've always keep being asked to spend less money on music binding. And one way that I and I, actually, we took this from Chapel Hill, University of North Carolina Chapel Hill does this. Basically, if if it's a paperback book. 160 00:25:14.058 --> 00:25:40.057 Peter Shirts: and we're, you know, basically doing this for scores to multiple signatures. It's it's thick. It's not just one signature. We've just market and put it on the shelf. Some of those scores will not be used very much, and and so can stay on the shelves. But once it's been you know, it's still soft bound, and and if it's got enough other things on the shelf that'll like, keep it stable. 161 00:25:40.058 --> 00:26:01.667 Peter Shirts: and if you know the things like that, it it would may be okay on the shelf, but once we start seeing signs of where or it's being checked out multiple times, the idea is then to bind it at that point and find a solution. So you do need to keep track in in this particular solution of check when things are coming back in and seeing what state they're in. 162 00:26:02.728 --> 00:26:24.987 Peter Shirts: because otherwise you can start destroying things pretty quickly. But we know in academic libraries, you know, there are a large portion of of scores or or items that just don't get used or don't get used for 10 or more years, and then suddenly start being used. So this is just kind of one way. It's not necessarily a great way, but 163 00:26:25.603 --> 00:26:29.987 Peter Shirts: it's a way that they've determined to to save money on binding. 164 00:26:30.928 --> 00:26:52.377 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Here's a sample. By the way, that red lettering across the date do slip says, please return to circulation after this has been checked out twice. We actually we. We did that for, like nearly all books for a long time, we finally gave up and stopped putting that on because 165 00:26:52.438 --> 00:26:56.856 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: a if something gets trashed they'll 166 00:26:57.908 --> 00:27:08.158 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: they'll send it up to us anyway. And usually it's not that bad that we can't just rebind it and B, we often would find things coming back to us, needing to be rebound after 167 00:27:08.608 --> 00:27:13.138 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: 10 circulations which for books isn't 168 00:27:13.208 --> 00:27:21.228 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: so damaging. So finally, we just stopped putting that on books. Of course there are scores 169 00:27:21.478 --> 00:27:23.488 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that are like those books. 170 00:27:24.264 --> 00:27:30.787 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We aren't going to put this on the shelf unbound because 10 circulations well. 171 00:27:30.818 --> 00:27:37.557 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I don't know parent, writer or text. Maybe it'll be used a little more respectfully. But still, in all 172 00:27:37.718 --> 00:27:47.268 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: like Dan said, music gets used harder per circulation. So I'm not sure we're going to apply that to scores. But it it could be a way. 173 00:27:47.790 --> 00:27:51.168 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: To like you say, defer the cost. 174 00:27:55.308 --> 00:28:02.958 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I see there's a couple questions in the question and answer, and I think that first question from Beth. I think we've 175 00:28:03.348 --> 00:28:15.848 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: covered most of what you've asked because we've talked about digitization and reprinting, and we've talked about bind after X circulations. If there's anything extra you need, answered, please type in 176 00:28:19.398 --> 00:28:22.808 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: somebody wanted to know about the shell stable requirements. 177 00:28:26.358 --> 00:28:28.538 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Which I think. 178 00:28:29.228 --> 00:28:30.257 Katie Risseeuw: I can talk about that. 179 00:28:30.258 --> 00:28:31.258 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah. 180 00:28:32.144 --> 00:28:34.802 Katie Risseeuw: So for our shelf stable requirements. 181 00:28:35.768 --> 00:29:04.062 Katie Risseeuw: it's basically anything that's over a quarter of an inch and also meets kind of like a 5 by 7. So any scores that are just like an adhesive bound or multiple signatures. If it is stable enough to go on the shelf, then we will put it there, and if things come back to us, we have probably, like everyone else, just come to our own preservation department again, we don't have a separate music preservation area. 182 00:29:04.658 --> 00:29:20.837 Katie Risseeuw: If a book has circulated and is damaged, then it comes to us and they will make the decision at the circulation desk. We've trained them, and they're wonderful people. So when they see something that needs any kind of work, they send it to us so a book could circulate. 183 00:29:20.958 --> 00:29:33.098 Katie Risseeuw: however, many times, until it's finally damaged, and then it'll come to us. So we don't have any kind of specific numbers for circulation. So, and we use that shelf stable 184 00:29:34.109 --> 00:29:37.557 Katie Risseeuw: measurement for basically everything in the library. So 185 00:29:38.328 --> 00:29:43.288 Katie Risseeuw: and the circulation issue for everything in the library so streamlined. 186 00:29:55.788 --> 00:30:07.907 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I think some of the questions showing up in the QA. We're going to be getting onto in a kind of an organic way as we go. So why don't we keep going for the moment? And then we can come back and catch the ones that didn't come up? How does that sound mark. 187 00:30:11.297 --> 00:30:12.647 Mark Coulbourne: Perfect sounds, great. 188 00:30:24.818 --> 00:30:25.858 Katie Risseeuw: So, just yeah. 189 00:30:25.858 --> 00:30:26.407 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Go ahead! 190 00:30:26.538 --> 00:30:30.228 Katie Risseeuw: I'll just start our in house binding. We have. 191 00:30:31.438 --> 00:30:36.408 Katie Risseeuw: Generally we have a budget for binding, which is more than perhaps the time we have 192 00:30:36.668 --> 00:31:01.788 Katie Risseeuw: for all the shell prep in house, and so it's always a balance, as I'm sure everyone else knows about money versus staff time and supplies. So mostly when we make decisions about what we're going to send to the bindery versus what we're going to do in house. It has to physically do with how thin or fragile a a pamphlet is, and even if there's scores like that's 193 00:31:01.788 --> 00:31:15.687 Katie Risseeuw: totally fine, we can, or scores with pot parts. We put that in a pocket, too. And so then there's also some that we get because of the nature of our post, 1945. Concentration. There's a lot of 194 00:31:16.058 --> 00:31:42.667 Katie Risseeuw: scores that are just pieces of paper with odd notations on them. So we will also do those in house and just put them in a binder in a pocket. Depending on what it has. You know, we have to be creative sometimes to make sure that everything is accessible and understandable, and then also, so that if a page is lost when it comes back and is returned to make sure that all of those pages are there. 195 00:31:43.008 --> 00:31:47.576 Katie Risseeuw: So and we don't keep statistics on that sort of thing. 196 00:31:48.478 --> 00:31:59.808 Katie Risseeuw: I just know some statistics. About sewing. Just the pamphlets due to how those particular stats are kept, but you know you never have the stats when you want them right. 197 00:32:04.278 --> 00:32:05.248 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah. 198 00:32:05.764 --> 00:32:10.611 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: well, I'll go. I'll but we'll just keep going across the top. And 199 00:32:11.338 --> 00:32:24.348 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: this score is is like the kind that Michael was talking about. We I didn't actually print this one from a Pdf. We don't do all that much just historically. 200 00:32:24.378 --> 00:32:52.447 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Sibley has tended to prefer to buy on paper rather than P Pdf. If given the choice. So the only things that we buy as Pdfs are things that we can only get that way. This happens to be one that we scanned and reprinted. This is on 11 by 17 paper, folded to 8 and a half by 11, because we don't have the kind of equipment that that Michael's got in in the. We can't print 12 by 18, 201 00:32:52.448 --> 00:33:06.738 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: but 11 by 17 works for a lot of stuff and tends to work for scores that, like self publishing composers send as a Pdf. Because they are thinking about 8 and a half by 11 202 00:33:07.348 --> 00:33:14.068 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and there is less else to say about that which I'm not going to. 203 00:33:16.658 --> 00:33:44.598 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and I can't remember what slide now we were on. Oh, yeah, okay, yes. Otherwise I don't know if you can see the back wall way behind us. That's like, got a whole lot of pam of, you know, pamphlets on it. That's that's our to do list and depending you how many we bind kind of depends on how many got got purchased or catalogued as gifts in the past year. 204 00:33:44.598 --> 00:33:56.227 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and what you can't see, and it wouldn't make any difference if you did or not. We had a shelf about yay that was like jammed full of 205 00:33:56.378 --> 00:34:14.467 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: oversize spiral binds, and that was most of what our special binding and Dan here guarded and bound all of them within about the past year, except for one that we will probably start binding behind you our our 206 00:34:14.478 --> 00:34:26.247 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: other full time employee. Katie is here, and we actually kinda like her to start doing that behind us. So you can kind of see the process happening. 207 00:34:27.008 --> 00:34:39.112 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and and this goes to one of the questions in the question box, as far as spiral bind spiral bound parts like the Jennifer Hicken scores, and and I've done a few others. 208 00:34:40.168 --> 00:34:41.218 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we 209 00:34:42.418 --> 00:34:52.167 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: tend to break those out and then guard them into signatures and then sew them into cover sheets, so they'll fit nicely into a pocket 210 00:34:52.178 --> 00:35:05.494 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: in the back of either a hardcover that we're gonna send out to our commercial binder, or in the in the back pocket of a pamphlet depending on how thick 211 00:35:05.918 --> 00:35:34.577 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: the main score is. That way, you know, the spirals kind of get in the way, and they make things thicker and the spiral, and and that all depends on how much shelf space you have in your, you know, in your stacks, and and and then the other, and then the other aspect of that is, how much internal labor do you have to actually break those things apart and guard them? And so them, etc, etc. 212 00:35:35.248 --> 00:35:36.068 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So there. 213 00:35:38.468 --> 00:35:39.117 Peter Shirts: The idea. 214 00:35:39.118 --> 00:35:47.317 Michael Foley: Just give us a sense, please, of how how much like. Let's say you had a 12 page score with or 12 page parked 215 00:35:47.428 --> 00:35:53.777 Michael Foley: in a spiral bind. How long might that take you to put the guards on, and then assemble it into a book. 216 00:35:54.568 --> 00:36:17.217 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Under 10 min. Yeah, more like 5. Actually like like, Dan said, we'll talk a little bit more about spiral binding, and I'll introduce. Katie Hutchings, who is like you, said our our third full time person, who has done a lot of this, and she will behind us take the spiral off and guard and bind a 41 page score 217 00:36:17.238 --> 00:36:20.267 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: during the rest of this conversation, and we can time it. 218 00:36:22.952 --> 00:36:31.067 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Katie says, alright. But, anyhow. Let's let's talk about everybody else, too. 219 00:36:31.528 --> 00:36:42.957 Peter Shirts: Yeah, yeah, I know, we're talking gonna talk about spiral later. So I just quickly on Emory, you know, again, a smaller operation students instead of tying 220 00:36:43.098 --> 00:36:54.787 Peter Shirts: pamphlet scores, which is, is kind of probably a better. I'm sure it's better we've been stapling, and it's easier to teach the students how to do that. You do need to use the right type of staples. 221 00:36:55.122 --> 00:37:10.368 Peter Shirts: That won't. If you use the wrong type, then they'll, you know they'll rest over time. So make sure you're using the right type of staples if you are stapling them into the into the pamphlet which we buy, you know, off the shelf. 222 00:37:10.692 --> 00:37:16.997 Peter Shirts: and then we'll talk about the custom binds later. I think so. I don't know if Steve wants to say anything about Maryland. 223 00:37:18.854 --> 00:37:21.901 Steve Quintilian (he/him): I would say, would Mark want to see anything over there? 224 00:37:22.538 --> 00:37:23.688 Peter Shirts: Right, mark. 225 00:37:24.029 --> 00:37:42.478 Mark Coulbourne: So at Maryland we do roughly 1,000 per year, depending on the year. We do custom enclosures for our size, which I know, we're going to talk about later. And in house binding represents. And music scores in general represent about 25 to 30% of our work flow here in preservation. 226 00:37:53.328 --> 00:37:56.428 Mark Coulbourne: Yeah, Katie, do you want to start with the outsource binding. 227 00:37:57.188 --> 00:38:23.227 Katie Risseeuw: Sure as I had mentioned before, we do send more things to the commercial binder hf group than we do in house. So here's just some numbers. That we have once. Sometimes it's influenced by how much the binder can handle at once. Cause we could definitely overload them and again, it also depends on if we have the the second music cataloger, and so 228 00:38:23.348 --> 00:38:43.097 Katie Risseeuw: that's up and down. So I think we haven't had one for about 6 months or more. So lately our numbers have been down. For the new things that have come in and the non pamphlet scores are just the regular adhesive or signature. Recase 229 00:38:43.108 --> 00:38:50.838 Katie Risseeuw: bound things, or also some of the the music books where we will. If it's an adhesive bound 230 00:38:50.898 --> 00:38:57.118 Katie Risseeuw: score with parts, there's a specific format that the Hf. Group has called a music book, which is 231 00:38:57.918 --> 00:39:19.357 Katie Risseeuw: only if you're in their lingo world doesn't make sense but in general for all of the binding that we do, because serials have gone down so much music is really making up quite a bit of our total binding costs. Due to the number, and due to the importance of the collection. 232 00:39:24.728 --> 00:39:34.645 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Alright, Dan, I'll let you speak about outsource binding for us. And I think Katie is sort of slowly starting. 233 00:39:35.388 --> 00:39:51.092 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah, okay, but anyhow, we'll we'll in. In the past 2 years we've spent 709, we we've sent 790 scores, and these would be scores of 60 pages or more. To our our group. Hf group 234 00:39:51.918 --> 00:39:59.455 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: for hardcover binding. We've also sent 435 periodicals, which we will combine 235 00:40:01.468 --> 00:40:22.937 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: volumes and then have them recast. And then, we've sent 14 thesis that which I'm surprised. We haven't sent more because we tend to bind all the thesis that come through our doctoral program. And hf, group has changed a lot over the the past couple of years, cause they've bought out a lot of companies, and then 236 00:40:23.158 --> 00:40:27.297 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: they consolidated. And it's been. It's been an interesting journey. 237 00:40:33.310 --> 00:40:44.267 Peter Shirts: I I'll just say we use hf group as as a binder. But actually, we haven't actually sent any scores to be bound in a couple of years. We have a stack 238 00:40:44.804 --> 00:40:48.371 Peter Shirts: but we didn't send anything to the bindery 239 00:40:48.828 --> 00:40:58.917 Peter Shirts: for the 0 things for a while in the pandemic for various reasons, and they're still working on the backlog of periodicals. Is my understanding. So 240 00:40:59.568 --> 00:41:08.718 Peter Shirts: hopefully, we'll send some of those, very, you know, exceptional scores to the bindery soon, but until then they they're waiting. 241 00:41:12.909 --> 00:41:20.758 Mark Coulbourne: And I and I can speak to Maryland. Here at Maryland we use a company called Workbook Binding. They're a small family operation located in Pennsylvania. 242 00:41:21.254 --> 00:41:34.068 Mark Coulbourne: And the only thing we generally send to the bindery are materials that require a hard bind. So you know, think very thick music scores, and it maybe totals 100 a year. 243 00:41:38.478 --> 00:41:42.817 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And I've got a couple of things having to do with questions people have asked. 244 00:41:43.761 --> 00:41:45.208 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Hf group 245 00:41:45.818 --> 00:41:54.646 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: actually conglomeration. Now of a number of binders that used to be, you know, individual binders. 246 00:41:55.308 --> 00:42:16.702 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Heckman bindery is, I think, was the H in Hf group, but I'm not sure. At any rate, they've been around for a long time in Texas. We've used them. We also used to send things to general book bindery, which also got amalgamated into hf group, and then was closed during the pandemic. 247 00:42:19.608 --> 00:42:20.828 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and 248 00:42:20.838 --> 00:42:38.578 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we have always sent, by the way, an answer to Amber's question scores as monographs. I'm not sure whether the music binding has to do with like things with pockets. We just tell them to add pockets so that 249 00:42:39.238 --> 00:42:52.187 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: their removal of music as a type hasn't changed our workflow just because our workflow didn't include it. But I'd be curious to see her if if anybody else has had a different 250 00:42:54.848 --> 00:42:56.328 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: experience with that 251 00:42:57.278 --> 00:43:01.084 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: right? And as far as the plant hf, 252 00:43:01.668 --> 00:43:10.298 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: they have dictated to us that we're using Indiana. We used to use one out of Ohio and they've moved it. Yeah. 253 00:43:14.648 --> 00:43:15.938 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And I. 254 00:43:16.488 --> 00:43:22.367 Mark Coulbourne: Before we move on, Alison and Dan, you've got a couple of questions about guarding in here, including 255 00:43:22.746 --> 00:43:26.688 Mark Coulbourne: you know what materials you're using and and explaining, guarding for 256 00:43:28.238 --> 00:43:29.928 Mark Coulbourne: for spiral bound materials. 257 00:43:31.662 --> 00:43:33.983 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Gardening for spiral bound materials. 258 00:43:35.308 --> 00:43:40.978 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we take off the spirals we use in this case. And 259 00:43:41.188 --> 00:43:45.437 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: yes, we've taken off the spirals. And here actually 260 00:43:45.968 --> 00:43:47.238 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: love me. 261 00:43:47.848 --> 00:43:49.228 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: this one! 262 00:43:49.568 --> 00:43:54.137 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: This is something that I actually asked Gaylord to make. 263 00:43:54.855 --> 00:44:13.297 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We had been for a long time using Tiek, the Gaylord soft structure, very thin, floppy, Tieveck ever since. I forget what we had it for before we had some, and a student said, Oh, couldn't we use this to guard with cause. It's so floppy. And we said, What a great idea! 264 00:44:13.368 --> 00:44:21.728 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: The only thing is it comes in these great big rolls. We cut the rolls into these strips, and we use white glue on these strips. 265 00:44:21.868 --> 00:44:45.687 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I asked Gaylord if they could come up with something that would be like that thin. Tie back but have water activated glue on it. And they did. And it comes in these roles. The only downside of these roles is that they can occasionally kind of stick themselves together in damp weather. I have not seen that happen with 266 00:44:45.748 --> 00:45:05.667 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: once you've like glued this onto a paper, even paper that has holes in it like a spiral bind it it. They do not seem to glue themselves together down the middle, which is something you would want to avoid. So I would recommend this. And if you go to the Gaylord website 267 00:45:06.202 --> 00:45:24.788 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: you know what I'll have to. I I think what we should maybe do is for some of these answers. Just get back to the questioners with that after this is done, and then we can add those answers, perhaps to the presentation for for later users. How about that? 268 00:45:24.788 --> 00:45:26.927 Mark Coulbourne: That sounds perfect, Alice. Thank you. 269 00:45:26.928 --> 00:45:49.136 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Right before we move on, though, I wanna give a quick definition of of guarding, because I've seen that come up a few times. And that is basically the process of gluing sheets together. That's going to be hardy enough to withstand the center binding or withstand sewing through the the 270 00:45:51.098 --> 00:46:08.587 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: through the v of of the paper without ripping the paper apart. That's why tie back is great, because when you pull a thread through that it's not gonna rip the thread, or this thick tape that we just showed you is not gonna rip through that tape. So guarding is the pro. Guarding is another word for gluing. 271 00:46:09.288 --> 00:46:10.078 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Hmm. 272 00:46:11.428 --> 00:46:12.378 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: guarding date. 273 00:46:13.028 --> 00:46:19.047 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Do you want to? We can move on now? Yes. Yeah. Do you want me to do it? I guess this workstation. 274 00:46:27.670 --> 00:46:37.355 Peter Shirts: So I'll talk a little bit about this, since I'm I'm the one that seems to be mostly on a budget here. So we talked about deferred binding already. 275 00:46:38.258 --> 00:46:42.566 Peter Shirts: so a another thing that I've seen is you can 276 00:46:43.118 --> 00:46:49.027 Peter Shirts: some libraries will in order to have, because the problem, of course, is 277 00:46:49.633 --> 00:46:56.382 Peter Shirts: scores, you know, bending that's the main thing. So if you can stiff if you can make the 278 00:46:57.108 --> 00:46:58.818 Peter Shirts: the covers thicker. 279 00:46:59.240 --> 00:47:06.476 Peter Shirts: That can help it's not, you know, a great solution compared to these others, but it's cheaper. 280 00:47:08.088 --> 00:47:23.498 Peter Shirts: so unbound sheet music can be stored in in in cabinets, and we're talking about with the ensemble libraries. That's mainly what they do. Sometimes, if we there's a libraries, will have a collection of like like a historical sheet. Music. 281 00:47:23.785 --> 00:47:39.610 Peter Shirts: That is really is kind of, you know. Usually a couple of sheets of paper, and there's lots of it would just be prohibitive to bind it so they they may store it in just boxes that people can, you know, in alphabetical order or something. So that's that's one thing you can do. 282 00:47:39.938 --> 00:47:42.140 Peter Shirts: Does someone want to talk about? 283 00:47:42.548 --> 00:47:45.858 Peter Shirts: pocket Bud, you know, budget options for pockets. 284 00:47:46.688 --> 00:47:56.597 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I've got a couple of samples I'll I'll show them, and if anybody audits there may be. By the way I did have here is something that we stiffened, and 285 00:47:56.658 --> 00:48:06.387 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: the the pros and cons of stiffening it is cheaper than sending it out to a bindery. It's totally flush binding. You don't have anything keeping the pages off the shelf. 286 00:48:07.080 --> 00:48:08.265 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: But it's 287 00:48:09.318 --> 00:48:15.188 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: But it does seem to work, though I will say this score has not yet circulated. 288 00:48:15.598 --> 00:48:31.607 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: You glue boards to the insides of the back covers. You do have to cover the outside with some cloth so that the hinge just doesn't just rip right off, which it will otherwise. So now it is totally dependent on 289 00:48:31.628 --> 00:48:45.627 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: having, you know the books stay in those now stiffened covers, but it was totally dependent on them staying in the non stiffened covers before either. So this is something that I used to just like, totally poo, poo! But 290 00:48:45.638 --> 00:48:46.658 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we tried it. 291 00:48:46.678 --> 00:48:47.688 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It works 292 00:48:47.848 --> 00:48:50.027 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: at least for 293 00:48:50.138 --> 00:48:52.818 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: things that don't get heavy use. 294 00:48:53.663 --> 00:49:01.867 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Budget pockets. I have a couple of particular things in mind. We do not buy pamphlets with pockets. 295 00:49:01.938 --> 00:49:15.278 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We add our own pockets that we cut out of cloth, and then just blew right around the outside. Some of the things I like about it is that they they hold 296 00:49:15.368 --> 00:49:18.327 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: much more. I mean, you know, we got 3 nice 297 00:49:18.878 --> 00:49:32.337 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: big old parts. In this pocket, which I don't think that would fit in the kind of commercial pocket that comes all glued to one side, and also, no matter how much you 298 00:49:32.718 --> 00:49:52.048 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: pull on this pocket from this side when you're getting the music in and out. The pocket's not going to rip off the back of the binder, because it's actually being held by the binder itself. I've been really happy with that style of pocket. I have not seen them like tear off the back. 299 00:49:53.328 --> 00:50:00.078 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I mean once, and maybe a blue moon. But I haven't seen this pocket rip off. 300 00:50:00.658 --> 00:50:11.238 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I don't know when I last saw one, so that that I think works well. We have one other slightly different kind of pocket that is cut from just a long 301 00:50:12.128 --> 00:50:13.118 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: strip. 302 00:50:13.944 --> 00:50:18.097 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Here's the last of our last 6 inch roll. We gotta buy some more. 303 00:50:18.971 --> 00:50:22.288 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: That we cut up using 304 00:50:22.398 --> 00:50:23.428 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: templates. 305 00:50:24.918 --> 00:50:34.406 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And that's a very cost effective for me. Just way to add pockets to something. There we go. Katie's got one 306 00:50:37.158 --> 00:50:38.198 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So 307 00:50:38.518 --> 00:50:49.627 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: those actually, I I no longer even think of as budget because we use them for everything. But they do cost a lot less than most of the other options that are out there. 308 00:50:51.648 --> 00:50:53.648 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah, I think that's all the budget stuff 309 00:50:53.728 --> 00:50:55.838 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I had either. 310 00:51:09.948 --> 00:51:14.745 Katie Risseeuw: We just wanted to list all of the different formats that we've come across. 311 00:51:16.088 --> 00:51:30.758 Katie Risseeuw: because I'm sure if anyone's worked in music libraries, you've seen all kinds of things. And again, especially us with the post, 1945 collecting focus. So here's just a bunch that we'll probably talk about 312 00:51:31.918 --> 00:51:32.888 Katie Risseeuw: in a minute. 313 00:51:35.538 --> 00:51:37.858 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I got. Here's a here's a little thick one. 314 00:51:39.348 --> 00:51:40.958 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Here's a big, thin one 315 00:51:40.968 --> 00:52:01.497 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: this one's on, and this I wanted to show Daiso paper. I'm gonna see if you can hold it. You you see how it's kind of brown around the edges. These guys also smell weird cause the paper is impregnated with ammonia, so that these ones we don't deidify, because the 2 things that will attack. 316 00:52:02.404 --> 00:52:15.138 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Daisal, printing is light, unfortunately, and alkalinity. So that's why this is still stuck in an antique acidic binding. 317 00:52:16.658 --> 00:52:28.052 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So, anyhow. Oh, yeah, there's a big skinny that's a single sheet 10, yes, because it also had another sheet. 318 00:52:28.958 --> 00:52:30.658 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Serious man, anyhow. 319 00:52:44.458 --> 00:52:47.018 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: All right, Dan. 320 00:52:47.178 --> 00:52:52.378 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: you'll have to tell them that I'm actually slower doing these specials than you 321 00:52:52.518 --> 00:52:53.138 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: people. 322 00:52:53.138 --> 00:52:54.388 Mark Coulbourne: Are we good Alice, for this. 323 00:52:54.388 --> 00:52:55.218 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah. 324 00:52:55.218 --> 00:52:56.018 Mark Coulbourne: But okay. 325 00:52:56.158 --> 00:52:56.703 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah. 326 00:52:57.248 --> 00:52:58.028 Mark Coulbourne: Okay, I, think we covered. 327 00:52:58.028 --> 00:53:15.400 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Oh, actually, I think Dan did have a couple of more things he wanted to say about spiral binds. I'm sorry I was. I was, yeah, just the 60 page thing worth mentioning, as far as spiral binds are concerned. And I love this picture of the spiral falling over. 328 00:53:16.278 --> 00:53:25.348 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: if it's more than 60 pages, we send them out to Hf group to be hardcover commercial bound. If they're less than 60 pages. 329 00:53:25.568 --> 00:53:31.159 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: it's it's a little bit cost prohibitive, and they 330 00:53:33.173 --> 00:53:47.308 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: when you're double fanning, because what the the process they'll use is a double fan. Boo process isn't as secure even with with fewer pages, for whatever reason. And so what we'll do with 331 00:53:47.368 --> 00:53:59.268 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: things that are less than 60 pages is, we'll create signatures and guard them. So typically a 60 page score, I'll have 3 signatures of 332 00:53:59.318 --> 00:54:00.638 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: 5, 333 00:54:02.648 --> 00:54:09.148 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: 5 pages each, fold them over, and then bind the 3 signatures together and put them into a. 334 00:54:09.478 --> 00:54:29.147 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: put them into a pamphlet binder. And if the pamp and and typically these spiral bounds are tend to be larger size scores so they will not fit in the typical pamphlet binders that you're going to buy from either archival supply or what's the other one 335 00:54:29.728 --> 00:54:46.207 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: archival products, archival products and and so we buy actual board, and we cut and make our own custom binders using tivex trips and pre purchase board. 336 00:54:47.398 --> 00:54:55.708 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And, by the way somebody did ask about where? Let pamphlet binders. The 2 places that I know of are archival products 337 00:54:55.718 --> 00:55:06.897 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: for a 10 by 13 binder. It costs about 8 bucks each, and they are somewhere. I've got one like nuclear. Here's one. 338 00:55:08.588 --> 00:55:13.584 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: actually, this is again. Oh, actually, no, this goes with spiral. Here's something that we could not 339 00:55:14.248 --> 00:55:18.118 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: could not send out because it was printed too close. 340 00:55:18.680 --> 00:55:35.977 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And it's more than 60 pages. So this one we sewed into an archival product, spiral binder because they have that or and no. An archival products. Spine, wrap, binder, cause that cool spine, wrap thing which sticks really easily covers the sewing 341 00:55:36.058 --> 00:55:43.078 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that we use to sew the spiral in and and then we just added one of our usual pockets. 342 00:55:43.409 --> 00:55:45.018 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: To put the parts in 343 00:55:45.208 --> 00:55:47.278 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: anyhow. 344 00:55:47.458 --> 00:55:53.788 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: those those are the archival products binders, the Gaylord binders, which are the other kind 345 00:55:54.225 --> 00:56:08.968 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that we use, and these are the ones that we use the most of, because they're a lot cheaper a 10 by 13 was like 3 bucks when we buy them in bulk, which we do. 346 00:56:09.654 --> 00:56:14.298 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And since we're buying a lot of them that 347 00:56:14.328 --> 00:56:18.338 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that makes a difference to us. So 348 00:56:19.666 --> 00:56:22.838 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: those are the 2 places that 349 00:56:23.748 --> 00:56:24.628 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I've 350 00:56:24.968 --> 00:56:41.478 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that I've seen, from which I've gotten binders that I could say, oh, yes, I approve this as a conservator and are cost effective. I think there are a couple of other places that make binders, but either they've got problems or they're very expensive. 351 00:56:43.888 --> 00:56:45.207 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So that's my binder 352 00:56:45.458 --> 00:56:46.288 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: thing. 353 00:56:47.258 --> 00:56:47.747 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Could. 354 00:56:47.748 --> 00:56:49.299 Peter Shirts: Can we go back to the 355 00:56:49.608 --> 00:56:51.957 Peter Shirts: The slide? Yeah, right on. 356 00:56:52.178 --> 00:56:54.836 Peter Shirts: So so those cheaper options? 357 00:56:55.816 --> 00:56:58.919 Peter Shirts: alice was just talking about one of them. 358 00:56:59.698 --> 00:57:13.638 Peter Shirts: which is basically why I put this here. This is what Emory dubs in instead of using but it's it's basically the same thing as as sewing it into that spine wrap binder, but creating a custom 359 00:57:14.034 --> 00:57:29.118 Peter Shirts: boards with the book cloth book cloth wrapped around the spine and then sewing it in so that and another. I I know that. Yeah. Unc. Chapel Hill. They put all their spiral lines in a box. 360 00:57:29.487 --> 00:57:55.488 Peter Shirts: So it'll sit on the shelf. It can still be used and opened. As you know, cause that's the point of the spiral binding right is to make it easy to open and some of the treatments that we do make it less on the shelf, but they don't make it easy to open it. It's not as easy to open anymore. So trying to balance those is difficult. But something needs to be done with the spiral bind, usually 361 00:57:55.808 --> 00:58:15.038 Peter Shirts: And if you wanna read more about spiral binding. I wrote an article about this. I'm posting it in the chat and has more information about spiraling combines. Why, we preserve them. The problems they can be, and some solutions which most of which you've heard already. 362 00:58:17.267 --> 00:58:25.567 Michael Foley: Let me speak a little bit to the spiral binds. Because we've done a little bit of experimentation. And again, here is a specialty. Bind 363 00:58:26.272 --> 00:58:29.658 Michael Foley: and getting the boards to be 364 00:58:31.678 --> 00:58:43.998 Michael Foley: distanced away from the spiral at the correct place is really important. Otherwise you get a book that's not openable. Essentially, you have a much wider joint. 365 00:58:44.068 --> 00:58:58.032 Michael Foley: So what we've done is in our case making. We actually apply another liner inside the case, and therefore it reinforces a wider joint and allows for some stiffness. 366 00:58:58.518 --> 00:59:20.048 Michael Foley: to the the joint and the other thing I found that seems to work, and this is just from a book construction point of view as opposed to a user point of view. But I found a flush case works really well, because you have much less stress on that spiral bound text block so that it's not gonna want to pull out of the case over time. 367 00:59:28.918 --> 00:59:32.567 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Oh, yeah, this yeah, like you said, this one's flush. 368 00:59:43.220 --> 00:59:57.415 Katie Risseeuw: This is a pretty this is my slide. So as you can see, we get scores that are rather large, and we do have questions about how they will fit on a stand. But for something like this really large red one 369 00:59:57.968 --> 01:00:03.389 Katie Risseeuw: we obviously had to make a custom binder in house with, you know, blue gray board 370 01:00:03.838 --> 01:00:07.740 Katie Risseeuw: and and that that takes quite a while. 371 01:00:08.288 --> 01:00:19.232 Katie Risseeuw: And then we recently had a collection move with the miniature scores moving into being inner, filed with the regular scores. So 372 01:00:19.708 --> 01:00:41.288 Katie Risseeuw: as you can see from this little photo that was gonna be an issue. So for some that were smaller and had particular issues, or really thick, so ones that we thought would get lost in between the larger scores and either push to the back or just somehow lost in there. We actually put them into 373 01:00:41.798 --> 01:00:57.927 Katie Risseeuw: tieveck pockets that we tape to binders, and we also get most of our almost all of our binders from archival products because they're close to us. They're in Iowa, and they're also employee owned. So we like supporting that 374 01:00:58.357 --> 01:01:02.048 Katie Risseeuw: and so, yeah, just we bought a bunch of like, 375 01:01:02.658 --> 01:01:17.987 Katie Risseeuw: 7 by 9 tievec pockets, and we put them in there. And it was a pretty large project. I think we had actually only pulled about 600 or 700, because when we were looking at all of the Mini scores all at once, before they were inner filed. 376 01:01:18.843 --> 01:01:19.577 Katie Risseeuw: You're 377 01:01:19.928 --> 01:01:35.328 Katie Risseeuw: your evaluation changes in terms of like. Oh, this is little, and then you put it, you know, next to something else. And you're like, Oh, my God! This is really big compared to this other one. So you know, if if there are issues in the stacks. We can go back and 378 01:01:35.608 --> 01:01:55.087 Katie Risseeuw: pull some more and do some some more of the housings. So we might just go up there and check and see how things are. But yeah. So then we put them into a a binder that was about 9 by 12 or or more, so it would have be able to stick out and not get lost among the larger trees. 379 01:01:56.178 --> 01:01:59.606 Katie Risseeuw: Oh, also we have started 380 01:02:00.715 --> 01:02:11.840 Katie Risseeuw: buying some scores that were Pdfs, and we have had actually really good success with printing them out at the Hf group. And 381 01:02:12.468 --> 01:02:22.759 Katie Risseeuw: we. We had about 90 that we sent out so we did them sort of in chunks to make sure that, you know, was getting what we wanted, and we also had to do some preliminary 382 01:02:23.848 --> 01:02:36.558 Katie Risseeuw: not cataloging, but figuring out what should be on the spine before it had actually been catalogued. So we worked really closely with our music catalog or Tomoko and that was, I think, a success. 383 01:02:39.788 --> 01:02:49.648 Peter Shirts: I I do. Wanna point out that before you print out your Pdf scores. You just wanna make sure that the license related to the Pdf. Scores allows 384 01:02:49.848 --> 01:02:55.228 Peter Shirts: the printing of that, since it is making a copy. So you need to make sure that 385 01:02:55.398 --> 01:02:59.657 Peter Shirts: everyone's aware that you're doing this. You know, legally. 386 01:03:01.688 --> 01:03:14.544 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: That. And also nowadays a lot of the Pdf. Scores come in with the name of the person who bought it pre printed on the cover, so you may want to check with your acquisitions library, and whether they mind that. 387 01:03:18.488 --> 01:03:24.539 Katie Risseeuw: Ours were originally came in electronically, and they were purchased that way. So it was like, well, we just made sure 388 01:03:24.908 --> 01:03:31.798 Katie Risseeuw: everything looked alright, and that the bindery could print it in the specific sizes that was necessary. So. 389 01:03:32.058 --> 01:03:35.977 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. I meant the Pdf comes with the name of the purchaser 390 01:03:35.997 --> 01:03:45.008 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: included on it, and some of them also prevent the Pdf. From being altered. So that was a question we had to decide. 391 01:03:50.247 --> 01:03:58.738 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I have one other quick comment about enter filing we with short scores that for some reason, aren't. We do still keep miniature scores separately. 392 01:03:58.877 --> 01:04:18.138 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: but we also we buy 9 by 1210 by 13 or 11 by 14 binders. If something is smaller than a 9 by 12, and needs to go on the regular shelving. We'll put it in a 9 by 12 binder, no matter how big. It is because of that problem of getting lost. We don't like cut binders down. 393 01:04:37.037 --> 01:04:38.377 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I gotta say 394 01:04:38.537 --> 01:04:40.358 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that book in the picture 395 01:04:40.908 --> 01:04:43.988 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: for the last one. That is this one. 396 01:04:45.468 --> 01:05:06.687 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: this is one of those. How many people have the Antonio Vivaldi complete works that has been coming out, and I hear laughter behind me. They're they're just little bit tall for our standardized scores and the paper covers we usually cut. They're just. They're a pain in every way. And in this 397 01:05:06.898 --> 01:05:09.587 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: particular set they came 398 01:05:10.018 --> 01:05:10.968 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: with 399 01:05:11.488 --> 01:05:13.348 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: ingenious. 400 01:05:13.458 --> 01:05:15.448 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: imaginative. 401 01:05:15.628 --> 01:05:20.398 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: paginate ways to come, put the pages together 402 01:05:20.678 --> 01:05:28.057 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: on the assumption that they were not going to be bound by a library, so that, for instance, this came with 403 01:05:29.118 --> 01:05:30.798 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: this sheet of paper 404 01:05:31.448 --> 01:05:32.478 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and 405 01:05:32.988 --> 01:05:34.828 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: this sheet of paper. 406 01:05:35.468 --> 01:05:53.158 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and our student, named Tristan figured out how to attach them all together so that they could all go into one cover and just be the violin cheap, poly part and you could like read it consecutively 407 01:05:54.068 --> 01:05:55.398 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: from bound 408 01:05:55.778 --> 01:05:57.238 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: on a stand. 409 01:05:58.578 --> 01:06:00.858 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I just had to show that 410 01:06:01.468 --> 01:06:02.578 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: year left. 411 01:06:06.048 --> 01:06:07.108 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: That's tight. 412 01:06:07.838 --> 01:06:09.877 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I don't think I have anything else to explore. 413 01:06:10.338 --> 01:06:11.138 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah. 414 01:06:13.868 --> 01:06:14.658 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: at that. 415 01:06:16.758 --> 01:06:37.647 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: This is where I was going to take a John Cage score. That was a chance score, and just throw all the papers up in the air, because we have scores like that, or anthony Braxton has a number of pieces out there I just had a hundred 32 page bound score, and each of the pages could be played in whatever order 416 01:06:37.748 --> 01:06:51.588 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: the performer wanted to play them in, and and that special situation, the the Braxton situation, we actually bound it in the order that it came in 417 01:06:53.188 --> 01:06:57.717 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And determined that if somebody actually wanted to perform it. 418 01:06:58.028 --> 01:07:00.337 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: they were going to have to buy their own 419 01:07:01.258 --> 01:07:07.017 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: same thing with. I don't know if anybody remembers. John Adams. 420 01:07:07.308 --> 01:07:09.378 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: this is that 10,000 birds 421 01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:24.287 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that came as a hundred 50 separate sheets to be, you know, traded around Ali. We made the same pramatic pragmatic decision with that one. We're a library 422 01:07:24.518 --> 01:07:37.208 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: 150, you know we do. So we do have something that we put on something with parts that says Check, for you know, 4 parts in pocket to to make sure, you know, so that we can. 423 01:07:37.268 --> 01:07:47.263 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: They have some kind of reminder. We're not going to be saying check for a hundred 50 separate sheets in this box. So we just bound this sucker. 424 01:07:47.778 --> 01:07:52.707 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: oh, yeah, yeah, it's a reference score more or less. Yeah. 425 01:07:53.148 --> 01:07:55.208 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: but smaller things 426 01:07:55.448 --> 01:08:00.578 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we will. We have been known to, you know, check for 30 parts in a pocket 427 01:08:01.388 --> 01:08:02.898 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: when it's clear that 428 01:08:02.958 --> 01:08:04.838 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: it can't be used otherwise. 429 01:08:09.198 --> 01:08:12.691 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Any other comments that people have, or stories 430 01:08:13.188 --> 01:08:14.218 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: snippets. 431 01:08:17.498 --> 01:08:32.112 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: If you are binding a score like that that has random pages that can be played in another order. And you bind it as a reference score. So it's actually bound papers together, so you can't separate the papers 432 01:08:32.528 --> 01:08:54.298 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: just double check with your catalog department, because the way that they come in as separate sheets, and they get cataloged as such. But if you're binding them and putting them on the shelves, and somebody's looking it up and going. Oh, these are all going to be separate sheets. You don't want them going in there and then, tearing out all of the sheets to make it match what the catalog record says 433 01:08:58.008 --> 01:09:05.097 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I couldn't find, because I couldn't remember the name, the score that came as a whole bunch of cards in a card file. 434 01:09:05.488 --> 01:09:13.398 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We did put that card file in our recordings, you know, and and weird stuff collection, which is 435 01:09:14.728 --> 01:09:16.488 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Not shelter. 436 01:09:16.838 --> 01:09:18.478 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: not accessible shelving. 437 01:09:18.982 --> 01:09:20.958 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We did keep that one 438 01:09:21.028 --> 01:09:25.208 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: as it was, of course. Did you also do the thing where you 439 01:09:25.488 --> 01:09:26.958 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: photo talking 440 01:09:27.188 --> 01:09:32.517 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: part and then take the other one out of circulation? So you have an extra device, or 441 01:09:33.131 --> 01:09:36.377 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yes, Katie brought that up. I think 442 01:09:36.478 --> 01:09:39.147 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we have occasionally 443 01:09:40.778 --> 01:09:42.358 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and illegally. 444 01:09:43.180 --> 01:09:45.077 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: That may backup 445 01:09:45.258 --> 01:09:51.477 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: scans of something where we are. And I well, I'm not sure about that. Actually 446 01:09:51.608 --> 01:09:59.207 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: did. We decided to. I think we talked about it. But yeah, I know that's and we may. 447 01:09:59.498 --> 01:10:07.365 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: That's that's where the the question arises. If you've got something that has 45 separate sheets. 448 01:10:07.898 --> 01:10:09.838 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And a sheet is lost. 449 01:10:09.868 --> 01:10:15.667 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Do you just keep on buying a new copy every time that happens, or do you not? 450 01:10:16.542 --> 01:10:21.157 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And I think every institution is, gonna have to answer that question 451 01:10:21.248 --> 01:10:24.237 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: for themselves most John case, force, and. 452 01:10:24.238 --> 01:10:25.870 Katie Risseeuw: That sounds like a 453 01:10:26.538 --> 01:10:30.828 Katie Risseeuw: a preservation fair use situation to me. 454 01:10:30.828 --> 01:10:31.918 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Let's see Robbie kinda. 455 01:10:31.918 --> 01:10:32.328 Katie Risseeuw: So. 456 01:10:32.328 --> 01:10:33.328 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Thing. Yeah. 457 01:10:33.985 --> 01:10:46.047 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I also think in this section. And and Hannah Spence just asked the question, I think we can talk about the whole margin thing, and it was a question that came up earlier about what if your gutters aren't big enough? 458 01:10:46.545 --> 01:11:08.480 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And there's always different kinds of solutions when you have spiral bound scores. Sometimes the spiral will actually go through that final bar line. And so you need to make the determination as to whether or not, you know. Are you just going to pamphlet? Bind around this the the spiral bind our rule of thumb the rule of thumb that I have. 459 01:11:08.818 --> 01:11:17.678 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and maybe Alice can correct me on it is, if I don't have a quarter inch gutter, it's not going to the commercial binder, because when they bind it. 460 01:11:17.678 --> 01:11:34.887 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It's kind of you won't be able to read your your your key signatures or your time signatures on on your odd pages, and and you won't see the final bar line on your even pages. And so we'll figure out different ways of of managing that 461 01:11:35.558 --> 01:11:37.628 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: blasphemy. 462 01:11:39.088 --> 01:11:43.648 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Okay? Oh, 90 stories is the card files. Okay. 463 01:11:43.648 --> 01:11:50.278 Michael Foley: Yeah, from a from a margin standpoint as an as a bookbinder, you'd probably want a minimum of 3 eights. 464 01:11:50.712 --> 01:11:58.977 Michael Foley: Because the and oftentimes those papers have to be over sown because they're stiff or they're cross grain, and the adhesive binding won't work. 465 01:11:58.988 --> 01:12:01.318 Michael Foley: But what I would say is 466 01:12:01.798 --> 01:12:17.447 Michael Foley: what I love about the spiral bind is, it's truly a lay flat binding. Once you open it up, and so that I really think that some effort into considering how to preserve that original spiral is gonna pay off from the user end 467 01:12:17.826 --> 01:12:22.917 Michael Foley: rather than changing the binding to preserve it, and then nobody can use it very well. 468 01:12:23.718 --> 01:12:29.488 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I think there are 2 reasons for applying a spiral bind. One is because it helps 469 01:12:29.578 --> 01:12:42.637 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: things lay flat. And indeed it's an ideal binding for a score that is not going to a library, and it's just going to be used by a performer. But the other reason that spirals get nowadays applied to bindings is because it's cheap 470 01:12:43.284 --> 01:12:47.397 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and when you've got a 12 page score with a spiral on it. 471 01:12:47.538 --> 01:13:05.228 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: there's just no way we're going to maintain that binding, because that'll be this stick instead of this stick, for one thing, and so we just we couldn't afford to shelve many that way. But I absolutely agree with you that the lay flat is is very important. 472 01:13:05.598 --> 01:13:09.588 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: plus it's easier to turn a page if it's on a stand. 473 01:13:09.818 --> 01:13:10.548 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah. 474 01:13:11.958 --> 01:13:14.738 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: if the spiral is the right size. 475 01:13:14.968 --> 01:13:16.088 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah. 476 01:13:18.728 --> 01:13:24.427 Mark Coulbourne: A actually, I I think Steve Quintillion might be able to speak to a little bit about that, too, because we we have found here in Maryland 477 01:13:24.468 --> 01:13:27.748 Mark Coulbourne: some spiral binds that are actually acceptable 478 01:13:27.798 --> 01:13:31.170 Mark Coulbourne: to go into the stacks exactly the way they are. 479 01:13:31.558 --> 01:13:35.548 Mark Coulbourne: I do not remember who the producers of these are, of course. 480 01:13:35.588 --> 01:13:39.178 Mark Coulbourne: but Steve might be able to shed some light on that situation. 481 01:13:39.628 --> 01:13:42.628 Steve Quintilian (he/him): I can't remember either. Some of them have very rigid 482 01:13:42.688 --> 01:13:44.158 Steve Quintilian (he/him): covers. 483 01:13:44.428 --> 01:13:49.578 Steve Quintilian (he/him): and then, of course, some of them are like anthologies as opposed to performance editions. 484 01:13:50.196 --> 01:13:53.058 Steve Quintilian (he/him): Which you know a little bit different. Use there. 485 01:13:53.268 --> 01:13:59.177 Steve Quintilian (he/him): and we've gone through I mean a variety of different treatments of these over the years. And I think. 486 01:13:59.805 --> 01:14:07.290 Steve Quintilian (he/him): what have we settled on now, Marcus, in many cases in in housing them in in a in a pocket right? Kind of as is. 487 01:14:07.578 --> 01:14:18.008 Mark Coulbourne: That's exactly right, unless they're stiff enough to to stand on their own. I know some of the ones that come in have in addition to the score, they have rigid plastic covers on the outside. 488 01:14:18.524 --> 01:14:19.041 Steve Quintilian (he/him): Yeah. 489 01:14:19.558 --> 01:14:20.038 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Organs. 490 01:14:20.038 --> 01:14:31.228 Steve Quintilian (he/him): And the playability of those again. Just like, just like I think Ken was saying, is is great, that until they until they start to get destroyed over time with you. 491 01:14:32.288 --> 01:14:38.027 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah, we get some scores for organists that come in like that, and we just show them as bound, cause you can't do better than that. 492 01:14:38.248 --> 01:14:44.658 Steve Quintilian (he/him): Conductor, conductor scores all conductor scores. Also, I mean ideal. It's really ideal to just have it like that. 493 01:15:02.028 --> 01:15:02.638 Steve Quintilian (he/him): Just. 494 01:15:02.638 --> 01:15:05.208 Mark Coulbourne: Anybody want to take on the best solution. 495 01:15:07.928 --> 01:15:10.985 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I think it absolutely depends on what your 496 01:15:11.558 --> 01:15:17.947 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: what your library is. You know it's I. I really don't think there is any one best solution. 497 01:15:21.338 --> 01:15:23.298 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So it depends on how much money you've got. 498 01:15:23.938 --> 01:15:31.128 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: how you're what kind of you know, whether you're a conservatory or research library, or whatever. 499 01:15:34.628 --> 01:15:53.838 Peter Shirts: I I mean, I think we've been talking about this as we as we go along. It it. There are a number of possible solutions. The solution works best for you is the one that you can afford and and the one that 500 01:15:54.148 --> 01:15:56.030 Peter Shirts: you know really 501 01:15:57.118 --> 01:16:11.907 Peter Shirts: can can handle the use that that your students are are giving? So if you are, gonna we talk about budget advocacy here. I think it is helpful. We we do have, you know. So Alice is. Well, we'll get this in a second. But Alice isn't 502 01:16:12.292 --> 01:16:28.823 Peter Shirts: leading the the of Music Preservation committee of Music Library Association, and if if you need help, like advocating, you know, she's a she's a great solution there. We also have a Music Advocacy Board, which is slightly different. But 503 01:16:29.698 --> 01:16:55.997 Peter Shirts: having examples of what you have on your shelf and the damage that happens to it, or examples of the use of scores can be really helpful. But if you need somebody from an outside institution to to provide those examples, if you don't have those. Then, you know, that's the time to reach out to somebody here one of the panelists, and, or, you know, reach out to to Alison the preservation Committee. 504 01:16:56.338 --> 01:17:17.787 Peter Shirts: To to get get those examples and to show what we do need some sort of preservation solution for these. The scores that are on the shelve, and I know it can be difficult, because sometimes the the preservation, or you know the pamphlet binding whatever can cost more than the scores or a significant, you know, fraction of the scores. So. 505 01:17:18.068 --> 01:17:22.008 Peter Shirts: But in the end, you know, if you wanted to last, then then you'll need those. 506 01:17:26.668 --> 01:17:30.654 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah, the the other thing I would add to that is the 507 01:17:31.700 --> 01:17:35.575 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: To determine your best solution, you're going to have to determine. 508 01:17:36.268 --> 01:17:55.825 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: what are the most important things you have to be protected, and that will factor into your budget considerations which will then factor into what type of solutions you want to use. You may not. Yeah. I mean most. I would assume that most libraries don't have the resources to bind everything, and so 509 01:17:56.188 --> 01:18:06.967 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: talk to the professors, figure out what they're using and what the students will be using, and make those a priority and then go from there. 510 01:18:09.353 --> 01:18:10.258 Mark Coulbourne: Michael. 511 01:18:11.138 --> 01:18:16.777 Mark Coulbourne: since you have outside customers in addition to the ones inside the Uc. System. 512 01:18:17.178 --> 01:18:21.698 Mark Coulbourne: what are your recommendations when customers come to you? 513 01:18:21.878 --> 01:18:33.138 Mark Coulbourne: And they are looking to consider preserving the materials, preserving the scores, and also being able to do so at a budget con in a budget. Conscious way. 514 01:18:35.225 --> 01:18:56.157 Michael Foley: I think there's not a whole lot of difference between what we see and you see in terms of music, binding and its challenges than than other schools. You can certainly build a a clam shell case. Make box. That's probably one of the best solutions just to keep it in an enclosure and and protected 515 01:18:58.978 --> 01:19:04.748 Michael Foley: when it comes to. Then binding or reformatting that physical copy. 516 01:19:04.958 --> 01:19:19.078 Michael Foley: It's gonna cost money. It's gonna it's it takes time and materials because they're all custom. They're different sizes. You're you're basically talking about materials that's non uniform in size and how to consolidate that. 517 01:19:20.288 --> 01:19:26.617 Michael Foley: I think that we? I've seen a lot of imperfect solutions in terms of binding that we've produced. 518 01:19:26.668 --> 01:19:27.598 Michael Foley: And 519 01:19:29.264 --> 01:19:38.618 Michael Foley: so it's takes a commitment by the customer to say, you know, this is our investment. And this is what we're gonna have to contend with. 520 01:19:40.008 --> 01:19:42.417 Michael Foley: I mean doing nothing is doing nothing. 521 01:19:42.518 --> 01:20:00.628 Michael Foley: So that I think the prioritization of what needs to be done, you know, needs to be at your forefront, but you certainly don't want to have shelves and materials that's are just left unbound. I wouldn't think. And then out of circulation. So that's the advocacy part 522 01:20:00.718 --> 01:20:03.267 Michael Foley: that needs to be 523 01:20:03.898 --> 01:20:15.878 Michael Foley: strengthened. I believe I mean, I heard a lot of comments about low budget and cheap, and I would just say, You know, this is a crafts, and it's not cheap. 524 01:20:15.898 --> 01:20:20.588 Michael Foley: And you know, just as you buy a car and you take it into the dealer. 525 01:20:20.882 --> 01:20:28.297 Michael Foley: You don't just buy a car and leave it alone. You. You have to figure. You've got maintenance every 6 months or every year, and it costs money. 526 01:20:29.868 --> 01:20:33.478 Michael Foley: so yeah, there's no perfect solution, mark. 527 01:20:35.068 --> 01:20:36.577 Michael Foley: I know it's a challenge. 528 01:20:39.623 --> 01:20:46.028 Mark Coulbourne: Thank you, Michael and I, and I know once again is our only commercial binder. Here you've had some interesting situations. 529 01:20:46.878 --> 01:21:01.198 Mark Coulbourne: That you have encountered with music scores over the years. Would you like to speak to some of those? Because I think we've been. You've been hearing some we. We've seen some in house solutions for some of these, but I would love to hear some commercial binding solutions for some of these 530 01:21:01.764 --> 01:21:04.198 Mark Coulbourne: unusual music scores that we've 531 01:21:04.228 --> 01:21:05.388 Mark Coulbourne: encounter. 532 01:21:07.788 --> 01:21:11.547 Michael Foley: I. You know, I think that I would say we're having 533 01:21:12.368 --> 01:21:18.588 Michael Foley: the salute as is as a solution what I like, and as someone who builds books. 534 01:21:20.468 --> 01:21:28.718 Michael Foley: to really consider the spiral bind and putting a hardcover around it and making that some type of standard product that can be produced. 535 01:21:29.175 --> 01:21:34.467 Michael Foley: That's one. And then the second piece is the idea of reformatting these. 536 01:21:34.943 --> 01:21:47.267 Michael Foley: Again, I would say, indesign is is a wonderful tool for that. You could even take a Pdf. And you can organize those pages and separate them as single images, so that if you need to scale that 537 01:21:47.358 --> 01:21:53.468 Michael Foley: for an 11 by 17 sheet, because I do recognize 12 by 18 is not 538 01:21:53.518 --> 01:21:55.708 Michael Foley: a common size. 539 01:21:56.648 --> 01:22:05.018 Michael Foley: and even at a 12 by 18 you just get a 4 page spread. You don't get an 8 page signature or anything bigger than that. So 540 01:22:05.481 --> 01:22:09.717 Michael Foley: but you know, if you can think about the idea, 4 page 541 01:22:10.480 --> 01:22:17.727 Michael Foley: that that sew together, or or stitch together on the saddle, you get that open, flat design. 542 01:22:19.358 --> 01:22:26.757 Michael Foley: There were comments here about legalese copyright and things like that that has to be considered within all of that. 543 01:22:27.519 --> 01:22:38.747 Michael Foley: So it's kind of dicey, but I would think we stand firm on that fair use policy. I mean, you have a you have a printed piece that you can't use. You can't use it. 544 01:22:38.778 --> 01:22:47.067 Michael Foley: So what's the purpose of having a library, you know, if you can't even loan it out, you know, or people can't read it, because there's no binding margin, so 545 01:22:47.098 --> 01:22:49.028 Michael Foley: does that help mark. 546 01:22:50.138 --> 01:22:54.998 Mark Coulbourne: It does. Thank you, Michael. And actually, one of the questions that came in specifically for you 547 01:22:55.038 --> 01:22:59.538 Mark Coulbourne: was, does your operation offer casement, clam shells or another can enclosure. 548 01:23:02.988 --> 01:23:22.148 Michael Foley: Well, yes, we do. The case make box I I think hf, group has case make machines library. Congress has them. So they're scalable. With a spiral line, for example, you you know you have those differentiated different thicknesses, and you could put padding in there to accommodate 549 01:23:22.148 --> 01:23:34.808 Michael Foley: it the items, so that it's not really just flopping around inside the enclosure. So you know, that case May can be modified. I think that's a that's a good solution for probably 15 to $20. 550 01:23:34.888 --> 01:23:36.808 Michael Foley: You could get that done. 551 01:23:40.388 --> 01:23:41.807 Mark Coulbourne: Thanks so much, Michael. 552 01:23:44.008 --> 01:23:50.568 Mark Coulbourne: Right? Well, we are at 2, 30, and we have 21 open questions. 553 01:23:51.055 --> 01:23:56.458 Mark Coulbourne: So it's a few more than I was actually expecting to see. But you know 554 01:23:56.498 --> 01:24:01.318 Mark Coulbourne: we can start to make some dents in here. I know we were going to plan to offer some 555 01:24:01.538 --> 01:24:04.257 Mark Coulbourne: materials at the end of this. 556 01:24:04.804 --> 01:24:06.227 Mark Coulbourne: And I don't know 557 01:24:06.748 --> 01:24:09.588 Mark Coulbourne: how many of these questions have already been answered 558 01:24:09.878 --> 01:24:10.918 Mark Coulbourne: on. 559 01:24:13.098 --> 01:24:16.868 Mark Coulbourne: So please forgive me. I'm reading through these. 560 01:24:19.358 --> 01:24:31.048 Mark Coulbourne: And so I I saw it put a couple of things into the chat in or into the questions, and one of them, is a is something that the associate Dean that I work for has brought up a number of times. 561 01:24:31.068 --> 01:24:36.467 Mark Coulbourne: which is moving towards like an ipad device for music scores for students. 562 01:24:36.598 --> 01:24:39.927 Mark Coulbourne: I'm really curious if anybody has actually seen these 563 01:24:40.415 --> 01:24:44.288 Mark Coulbourne: in action, or whether you're seeing them in your libraries. 564 01:24:50.618 --> 01:24:56.108 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We haven't used them in our library. I know we certainly have faculty and students 565 01:24:56.238 --> 01:24:57.688 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: who use them. 566 01:24:58.475 --> 01:25:02.358 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I'm actually in conversation. There's a 567 01:25:03.179 --> 01:25:12.657 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and Peter knows about this. The the electronic scores working group of the Music Library Association is starting to talk about 568 01:25:13.358 --> 01:25:19.638 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: solutions for library as opposed to individual 569 01:25:19.718 --> 01:25:21.278 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: licensing 570 01:25:21.398 --> 01:25:24.228 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: of music. And 571 01:25:24.448 --> 01:25:25.758 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: one of the 572 01:25:26.108 --> 01:25:26.988 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: kind of 573 01:25:27.218 --> 01:25:35.888 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we're we're looking particularly at working with self-publishing composers and tiny publishers, because larger publishers 574 01:25:36.038 --> 01:25:43.747 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: are no doubt going to come up with their own solutions, for which we'll have to pay through the nose. But in any case. 575 01:25:44.038 --> 01:25:50.288 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: yeah, actual electronic use of electronic scores 576 01:25:50.558 --> 01:26:06.658 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: is finally starting to happen. It took a lot longer than kind of than I expected it to. But there are now, you know big tablets and and page turn programs and various kinds of 577 01:26:07.287 --> 01:26:16.268 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: options. With that it it comes for libraries. However, it comes back to the licensing, which mostly doesn't exist yet. 578 01:26:16.548 --> 01:26:19.778 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and that's something we're hoping to do, something about. 579 01:26:20.418 --> 01:26:21.708 Peter Shirts: Yeah, there's 580 01:26:21.908 --> 01:26:28.997 Peter Shirts: usually for things like that. We have to rely on publish, as I know, encoders doing this where they you can. 581 01:26:29.408 --> 01:26:39.418 Peter Shirts: You know, purchase a monthly membership, and then you'll have access to their library. And they've already done all the licensing libraries. Typically, don't have 582 01:26:40.110 --> 01:26:43.485 Peter Shirts: a way of really licensing that many 583 01:26:44.278 --> 01:27:08.078 Peter Shirts: scores and putting them on an ipad. So I don't. I don't think anytime soon libraries are going to be lending out ipads with music on it. The other problem with that is the preservation. Right? You know, we're we're here to preserve things, and if you put something on ipad and circulate that you're not. We're not preserving it really. the digital you know, if we do have a digital score. I know there are some libraries out there, not that many who 584 01:27:08.088 --> 01:27:15.543 Peter Shirts: are able, through their license, to to purchase a score and put it behind a paywall or not. Paywall. 585 01:27:16.708 --> 01:27:34.068 Peter Shirts: yeah. Authentication authentication. So you can. You know, only people in that institution are able to get to it. We still are interested in preserving that, you know. That's that's still a preservation question. Which is why some people 586 01:27:34.360 --> 01:27:49.277 Peter Shirts: digital preservation is hard that way. It's some. It's actually easier just to print it out and put on the shelf. It's more likely to stay preserved that way. For a number of reasons which we won't talk about here. But yeah, licensing is the big big problem. There. 587 01:27:57.088 --> 01:28:13.648 Mark Coulbourne: Awesome. So there are some other questions in here, too, and I once again I I apologize if someone is already taking care of these or not. But one of them is, I'm being asked if there's a company that provides shelf ready scores already labeled. And do you know of any. 588 01:28:21.928 --> 01:28:23.108 Katie Risseeuw: Seems like a No. 589 01:28:23.388 --> 01:28:24.767 Katie Risseeuw: yeah, from all of us. 590 01:28:25.028 --> 01:28:26.532 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: If there was one. 591 01:28:27.308 --> 01:28:34.698 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: No, I I'm not a cataloger or an acquisitions person. It. It's possible that there is, and we just don't know about them. 592 01:28:39.788 --> 01:28:43.997 Mark Coulbourne: This one comes in. What to do if your gutter is too narrow. 593 01:28:46.908 --> 01:29:00.626 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: One thing is to sew a spiral into a cover, just like Mark was saying, or, you know, find some way to put a spiral bind into a cover. Those are mostly the ones that have the margins that are too narrow. Gonna see? 594 01:29:02.158 --> 01:29:15.897 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: no, I don't. I guess we we are not going to have our our spokes model binder. Katie is a very careful person, and is, and is approaching her binding in a different way than I would 595 01:29:17.081 --> 01:29:45.347 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: so so, but that margin is pretty narrow. But using the the stick on that, the water activated glue tape, which is, I believe, 3 quarters of an inch wide. Yeah, that's 3 eights of an inch. That gives you enough margin. It'll it'll just cover the holes, but it won't cover the music unless the holes are actually, you know, punched through the music 596 01:29:45.660 --> 01:29:51.598 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: which has been known to happen and and that's where you start sewing it into the binder again. 597 01:29:55.878 --> 01:29:59.928 Mark Coulbourne: Thank you. I actually think that answered a couple of questions. Not just that one. 598 01:30:00.178 --> 01:30:01.898 Mark Coulbourne: So I think we can use 599 01:30:02.378 --> 01:30:03.618 Mark Coulbourne: of. 600 01:30:04.568 --> 01:30:06.048 Mark Coulbourne: So 601 01:30:06.518 --> 01:30:12.197 Mark Coulbourne: oh, Alice, could you show the hinged binding again at the end that you guarded. 602 01:30:13.368 --> 01:30:22.127 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: The hinge binding at the end. That I oh, oh, so a guarded item. 603 01:30:22.738 --> 01:30:25.238 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I'm not sure. Oh, we can. 604 01:30:27.258 --> 01:30:40.918 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah, you know, I forgot to pull that out I will say, and on the very last screen of the presentation is a picture of the book that I wrote that has pictures of, like all of this stuff. 605 01:30:41.395 --> 01:30:46.760 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: And it's it's not cheap. It's like a hundred bucks. But, on the other hand, 606 01:30:47.158 --> 01:30:58.108 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: it does have like it has pretty much an answer to all of the questions that have been asked. And also 607 01:30:58.918 --> 01:30:59.648 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that 608 01:30:59.698 --> 01:31:05.588 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: 6 week summer binding course starts on June 20, ninth. And again. 609 01:31:05.838 --> 01:31:19.038 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: it's made to both answer all of that kind of question, and also approach that. So what is the best solution by figuring out, what is the best solution for my library? 610 01:31:19.840 --> 01:31:23.697 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Cause. Both of those are important. 611 01:31:24.683 --> 01:31:26.048 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Page 2, Hector 612 01:31:26.428 --> 01:31:54.287 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and I will say about the folio shelving. Yeah, I think the company that we bought ours from, which is what's in that that picture, Estis? I think it was. And I don't think they did make that anymore. But we have had luck in the past by just going to someplace that fabricates things and saying, make something that looks like this. And they do 613 01:31:54.589 --> 01:32:09.338 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: it's harder to find nowadays, because, you know, everything's been outsourced overseas. But there are companies that will, just like, you know, bend the metal and put the holes in it so you can screw it into place, and that might be something to look at for folio shelving. 614 01:32:12.208 --> 01:32:14.358 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: This is a guarded 615 01:32:16.328 --> 01:32:27.847 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: a a a 2 pages guarded together, and what they'll what I'll what I'll have with these 2 pages darted together. You can see the tape going down the middle, then they'll be folded 616 01:32:27.868 --> 01:32:39.288 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: as, and then we nest them. So we pay attention to the pagination and whatnot, and nest them into a signature, and it and at that point we 617 01:32:40.518 --> 01:32:43.818 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: ready. So that's what a guarded 618 01:32:44.288 --> 01:32:49.968 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: once once they're guarded and in signatures. Then we put a cover sheet over the top of it. 619 01:32:50.908 --> 01:32:53.468 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and we sew right through the saddle. 620 01:32:53.688 --> 01:32:55.678 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So that's what a guarded 621 01:32:56.238 --> 01:32:57.398 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: page 622 01:32:57.848 --> 01:33:18.258 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and finished product would look like at the end, and then stuck in a binder, and and you can either sew them into binders or a lot of the binders that you can pre buy now, have glue strips that are water activated as well, so you can just sew it straight into your cover sheet and then adhesive into your binder, or you can sew it directly into the binder. 623 01:33:20.668 --> 01:33:22.268 Mark Coulbourne: Okay, Michael. 624 01:33:22.698 --> 01:33:29.298 Mark Coulbourne: we were going to act. We're going to share a video, real quick of a reinforced case for spiral binding. 625 01:33:30.061 --> 01:33:33.397 Mark Coulbourne: So, Michael, you should have the ability to share your screen. 626 01:33:33.398 --> 01:33:34.658 Michael Foley: Okay. 627 01:33:35.338 --> 01:33:37.987 Michael Foley: let's see, let's share that one. 628 01:33:38.458 --> 01:33:39.203 Michael Foley: And 629 01:33:40.338 --> 01:33:44.138 Michael Foley: let's see if this works. I think I can just click onto it. 630 01:33:44.268 --> 01:33:46.060 Michael Foley: And I think? 631 01:33:49.158 --> 01:33:58.048 Michael Foley: so this is going through our glue machine, and you can see the spine liner on the right hand side has a separate liner that's already been preatted. 632 01:34:00.238 --> 01:34:03.898 Michael Foley: So this is again for a spiral case with a 633 01:34:18.908 --> 01:34:21.467 Michael Foley: so that will reinforce the wide 634 01:34:21.658 --> 01:34:22.788 Michael Foley: joint 635 01:34:22.818 --> 01:34:25.107 Michael Foley: that is needed for a spiral 636 01:34:27.258 --> 01:34:29.468 Michael Foley: that reinforce joint right there 637 01:34:46.588 --> 01:34:51.387 Michael Foley: and then. It's just fashioned like a standard case. We cut the corners and turn them in 638 01:34:53.448 --> 01:34:54.228 Michael Foley: there at 60 639 01:34:55.528 --> 01:34:57.947 Michael Foley: standard case, fifth corners 640 01:35:05.528 --> 01:35:06.508 Michael Foley: fit in. 641 01:35:21.688 --> 01:35:22.458 Michael Foley: Go 642 01:35:22.938 --> 01:35:24.058 Michael Foley: press. 643 01:35:28.318 --> 01:35:29.018 Michael Foley: leather. 644 01:35:31.628 --> 01:35:32.508 Michael Foley: nice job. 645 01:35:37.348 --> 01:35:39.917 Mark Coulbourne: That's awesome, Michael. Thank you so much for sharing that. 646 01:35:40.218 --> 01:35:41.168 Michael Foley: You're welcome. 647 01:35:41.412 --> 01:35:45.818 Mark Coulbourne: So I thought really quickly. I read through a couple of comments that are in here as well. 648 01:35:46.188 --> 01:35:51.601 Mark Coulbourne: So one of them says I'm new to my position, and I inherited instructions. 649 01:35:52.688 --> 01:35:58.827 Mark Coulbourne: said, to use music binding, but now I can't, so I'm not sure what it was before. But thank you. 650 01:35:59.626 --> 01:36:01.570 Mark Coulbourne: Another comment from 651 01:36:02.438 --> 01:36:08.598 Mark Coulbourne: says I recommend the Uc. Binary as an option. They work with folks outside of the University of California system 652 01:36:09.288 --> 01:36:10.108 Mark Coulbourne: on. 653 01:36:10.878 --> 01:36:14.138 Mark Coulbourne: Has someone else commented, that we've had experiences 654 01:36:14.148 --> 01:36:22.148 Mark Coulbourne: with items in our collections that have been stiffened, that the hinges deteriorate because of the extra bulk rather quickly, even when taped. 655 01:36:24.138 --> 01:36:32.787 Mark Coulbourne: There was another one in here, just from a shelving issue. Spiral bound materials can be much fatter at the spine than the fore edge. 656 01:36:33.498 --> 01:36:38.548 Mark Coulbourne: and so shelving a bunch of them together is a possible issue. They can entangle. Sometimes 657 01:36:38.768 --> 01:36:44.447 Mark Coulbourne: the plastics and the comb bindings can embrittle and fall to fall pieces. Fun! Fun! 658 01:36:46.688 --> 01:36:54.258 Mark Coulbourne: I am. Oh, and Michael, here's a question directly for you. How is the spiral bound item attached to the case? 659 01:36:56.388 --> 01:37:13.517 Michael Foley: So the end sheets are tipped onto the front cover and we can reinforce that front cover as need be, with some tie, back tape or something like that, because that's where the stress will be. W, that that could potentially be the weakest part where the end sheet is tipped onto 660 01:37:13.578 --> 01:37:14.748 Michael Foley: the 661 01:37:15.068 --> 01:37:19.548 Michael Foley: the first page or cover of the spiral bind 662 01:37:20.938 --> 01:37:50.688 Michael Foley: And while I'm speaking there was one question I saw about cockling there in the chat, and I think that that has a lot to do with the paper grain and the paper itself, and maybe the grain of the tape you're using. But if they are going in opposite directions, you will oftentimes get that cockling or that rippling across the spine, and it's it's hard to it's, and that's why. Oftentimes things will go to over. So, because that cockling will indicate that the gluing won't hold well over time. 663 01:37:52.608 --> 01:38:02.947 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I will have to admit that over, son. Items will not stay open on a stand. They just they they close themselves. That's what they're made to do. They're made to be stuck together. 664 01:38:02.998 --> 01:38:13.267 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: so that overso is is a good little last ditch solution for books. But it actually won't make music that is usable on a stand. 665 01:38:13.898 --> 01:38:15.857 Michael Foley: That's correct, Alice. Thank you. 666 01:38:17.358 --> 01:38:32.838 Mark Coulbourne: So I I think here's a question that could go to just about anybody in this group. So we'll allow time for everyone to respond, how much input do you have from your music faculty and students, both binding practices and what's likely to circulate 667 01:38:32.988 --> 01:38:35.057 Mark Coulbourne: and priorities within the collection? 668 01:38:40.478 --> 01:38:42.078 Mark Coulbourne: Not sure who wants to go first. 669 01:38:43.828 --> 01:38:44.337 Mark Coulbourne: I'm a. 670 01:38:44.338 --> 01:38:46.917 Katie Risseeuw: Little fish, so I don't hear anything. 671 01:38:48.058 --> 01:38:53.147 Steve Quintilian (he/him): I'll jump in for a second. Yeah, as a as a music cataloger. I'm very 672 01:38:53.338 --> 01:38:56.188 Steve Quintilian (he/him): frequently communicating with the circus staff 673 01:38:56.378 --> 01:39:00.337 Steve Quintilian (he/him): and kind of liaising between circulation and and preservation on 674 01:39:01.270 --> 01:39:21.997 Steve Quintilian (he/him): usually the weird stuff you know, how do we deal with this thing that comes through? So yeah, it's a great question is, and it's really important. And I think it's much easier to get an in front of issues. So you know, I I find it often, if I have a question I'll I'll bring it up, you know. So it's easier to to do that than to fix a problem, you know, that comes back to us. 675 01:39:23.908 --> 01:39:49.825 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I think our experiences that from students we mostly hear. How fast can I get this yet? We go back and forth a lot with the circulation staff. There are a few faculty people who do take more of an interest, and in certainly there are also students that are curious about. How can I bind my music so that it's like these nice pamphlet binders I get out of the library. We get some of that. 676 01:39:50.948 --> 01:39:58.217 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: On the whole. Our users, I think, tend to just like accept things as bound. 677 01:39:58.238 --> 01:40:07.298 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I think that's partly because we put a lot of thought and energy into making it so that they will work as bound. 678 01:40:12.788 --> 01:40:20.048 Mark Coulbourne: Thank you all. Another question. Has anyone used wire binders from archival products for larger pieces? 679 01:40:20.078 --> 01:40:21.948 Mark Coulbourne: And what do you think of these? 680 01:40:34.544 --> 01:40:35.298 Mark Coulbourne: Dan, you're 681 01:40:35.548 --> 01:40:36.657 Mark Coulbourne: but you're muted 682 01:40:36.748 --> 01:40:38.017 Mark Coulbourne: okay. We weren't. 683 01:40:38.018 --> 01:40:38.758 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Think. 684 01:40:38.758 --> 01:40:47.077 Mark Coulbourne: Okay? So I I guess none of us have an opinion on that, or none of none of us have used them so fair enough. Does anyone still sell 685 01:40:47.118 --> 01:40:54.597 Mark Coulbourne: that folio shelving that was in the picture on one on a previous slide? I can't find a vendor for it. This is. 686 01:40:55.338 --> 01:41:00.847 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: That was the one where I said that that one on the previous slide, the vendor was Este's. 687 01:41:00.898 --> 01:41:08.878 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I don't think they sell it anymore. But you probably could find somebody. If you're in a city 688 01:41:08.898 --> 01:41:13.148 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: that would actually fabricate to your direction and 689 01:41:13.248 --> 01:41:14.488 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: given that, there's 690 01:41:14.728 --> 01:41:17.788 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: limits to how much folio shelving you're going to be using. 691 01:41:18.577 --> 01:41:19.817 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It's probably 692 01:41:19.898 --> 01:41:32.338 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: the most cost effective solution. I've been noticing also in the common section that people are using map drawers and and and shoving those things horizontally, which is another solution. 693 01:41:34.428 --> 01:41:35.188 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah. 694 01:41:35.708 --> 01:41:37.138 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: fact, we do do. 695 01:41:38.212 --> 01:41:43.068 Mark Coulbourne: What kind of paper is best kept in the antique binding. Again. 696 01:41:45.048 --> 01:41:46.738 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I'm not sure 697 01:41:46.958 --> 01:41:51.857 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: is that for reformatting old scores. 698 01:41:54.238 --> 01:41:55.668 Mark Coulbourne: That's all the information. 699 01:41:55.668 --> 01:41:59.308 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yeah, they might, if they ask anything else. 700 01:42:00.368 --> 01:42:06.248 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: we have. We? We buy ivory covered ivory colored paper, and 70 pound weight 701 01:42:06.308 --> 01:42:17.023 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: for reprinting older scores cause people kind of like to see that ivory color, even though in the original older score. That was because of that damage. But it looks nice. 702 01:42:17.849 --> 01:42:19.807 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: But the 70 pound weight 703 01:42:20.208 --> 01:42:25.547 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: of and that is of like offset text paper. 704 01:42:26.458 --> 01:42:27.978 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Works well. 705 01:42:28.138 --> 01:42:30.027 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It's thick enough for music. 706 01:42:32.418 --> 01:42:36.488 Michael Foley: And that's where you'd wanna make sure that paper grain is going in the correct direction right. 707 01:42:36.488 --> 01:42:44.057 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Yep, actually for our for the things that we print out on. Oh, come on now! 708 01:42:44.228 --> 01:43:11.658 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: 11 by 17 paper, and folded in half. Oh, here it is for this site we buy special we what we buy paper special for that, because if you just go to the store and get 11 by 17 paper. It's gonna have the grain running this way, and that's the wrong way. You wanna have the green run with the spine. The reason for that is, that paper would prefer to fold with the grain. 709 01:43:11.758 --> 01:43:12.798 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: So 710 01:43:13.718 --> 01:43:32.837 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: it it really it doesn't. I'm kind of forcing it to fold this way, and it doesn't want to. It wants to fold this way, and that's the way we're folding it. So it is worth the extra money we occasionally do bind like pamphlet bind scores that we get from self publishing composers where the grain is running the wrong direction. Usually they're short. 711 01:43:32.898 --> 01:43:37.358 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: They get a little Ripley. They'll probably have noisier page turns. 712 01:43:37.558 --> 01:43:44.587 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: But it's not a problem to the point where we're willing to like. Scan it and reprint it. 713 01:43:45.068 --> 01:43:46.738 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: but you can tell the difference. 714 01:43:46.898 --> 01:43:53.768 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We also with scores or books, you know, if we're deciding whether to send them to the binder 715 01:43:53.918 --> 01:44:02.501 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: every once in a while there will be a score book. I hold it like this, and it flops over because the grain was printed the wrong way. 716 01:44:02.848 --> 01:44:06.398 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It's it's pretty noticeable and kind of amusing. 717 01:44:08.658 --> 01:44:10.247 Michael Foley: So if you were to purchase 718 01:44:10.298 --> 01:44:13.758 Michael Foley: 1117 paper from Amazon, or something 719 01:44:14.091 --> 01:44:27.348 Michael Foley: you would look for something that's either designated a short grain or the grain is running along the 11 inches, and that would give you the proper grain for printing. 4 page spreads or or multiple pages on that paper. 720 01:44:27.528 --> 01:44:28.208 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Hmm. 721 01:44:28.998 --> 01:44:29.738 Mark Coulbourne: Awesome. 722 01:44:29.928 --> 01:44:31.797 Mark Coulbourne: So we have 2 questions left. 723 01:44:32.456 --> 01:44:38.278 Mark Coulbourne: What are the fewest pieces? Fewest pieces, count. Do you leave unbound in a pocket. 724 01:44:41.658 --> 01:44:45.338 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: We'll put one piece in a pocket. We'll also put 9 parts in a pocket 725 01:44:45.868 --> 01:44:50.217 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: where and and in fact, pockets can accommodate a lot. 726 01:44:50.448 --> 01:44:53.027 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I just did 17 the other day. 727 01:44:53.028 --> 01:44:53.598 Mark Coulbourne: Wow! 728 01:44:54.449 --> 01:44:57.988 Mark Coulbourne: And the last question is, how long to drive the guard. 729 01:44:58.528 --> 01:45:00.167 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Depends on how you're guarding. 730 01:45:00.618 --> 01:45:15.827 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: If you're using a glue garden, I don't know the exact type of glue we're using. I couldn't. If if you're not using too much glue, it dries really quick. If you're using too much glue, it dries really slow. 731 01:45:16.668 --> 01:45:41.103 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Usually, if I'm guarding something, and I start at the top, and I work my way down to the bottom, and, as I, you know, put 2 sheets together, and I put them to one side and I kind of turn them upside down by the time I'm done gluing the last 2 pages together and stick them in my pile, I'm ready to turn the pile over and fold them all in half, one at a time, and by the time I get down to the bottom one it's ready to fold in half. 732 01:45:41.618 --> 01:45:43.128 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: so it doesn't take very long. 733 01:45:44.378 --> 01:45:48.878 Mark Coulbourne: Awesome. Thank you. So we are just really close to time. So 734 01:45:50.318 --> 01:45:55.217 Mark Coulbourne: I would like to thank all of our speakers for their valuable time and their expertise. 735 01:45:55.368 --> 01:46:00.077 Mark Coulbourne: and I'd like to thank Kim Norman for all of her help in making the Symposium a reality. 736 01:46:00.178 --> 01:46:05.898 Mark Coulbourne: Also, I would like to thank everyone who has been so supportive at the Symposium and who helped us get the word out. 737 01:46:06.038 --> 01:46:25.167 Mark Coulbourne: Finally, I'd like to thank everyone who came today because well, without all of you. This would just be a discussion among colleagues instead of the wonderful symposium that it was so. We have a few extra minutes. I wanted to leave some few minutes for final words from anyone. Who would like to say a couple of last words. 738 01:46:29.788 --> 01:46:33.277 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I'm gonna put my email in the chat. 739 01:46:33.613 --> 01:46:36.758 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Just in case anybody wants to get in touch with me. 740 01:46:38.688 --> 01:46:42.187 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Alice wrote the book. So if you have questions. 741 01:46:42.288 --> 01:46:43.628 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: ask Alice. 742 01:46:44.368 --> 01:46:45.148 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: There. 743 01:46:46.458 --> 01:46:52.537 Michael Foley: I have a question for Alice with that oversized piece. Do you also provide an oversize music stand. 744 01:46:53.675 --> 01:47:01.017 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: No. And yeah, there's there are a couple that I 745 01:47:01.088 --> 01:47:12.030 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I haven't seen them in use, so I do not know what they do. I suppose you'd like prop it against the piano or something. 746 01:47:12.838 --> 01:47:14.562 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Sometimes we put 747 01:47:15.418 --> 01:47:16.528 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: like 748 01:47:16.788 --> 01:47:20.838 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: post like post the board like kind of this sort of stuff 749 01:47:21.368 --> 01:47:22.448 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: right here. 750 01:47:22.658 --> 01:47:30.137 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It's kind of got that phone the same. Yeah, we sometimes would cut out 751 01:47:30.488 --> 01:47:32.188 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: something to help 752 01:47:32.758 --> 01:47:34.987 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: put multiple stands together. And. 753 01:47:35.718 --> 01:47:40.118 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: you know, put enough reinforcement so that it doesn't topple over. But 754 01:47:40.328 --> 01:47:43.037 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: yeah, sometimes, too, we well. 755 01:47:43.908 --> 01:47:50.258 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: I will say what we do. Sometimes we will take the score, make photocopies and just 756 01:47:51.108 --> 01:47:56.427 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: put a bunch of them on one of these poster boards and put it on the stand 757 01:47:56.468 --> 01:47:59.097 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: so that way. We don't even have to turn pages. 758 01:47:59.188 --> 01:48:05.878 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: It depends on how big the score is, though, so but obviously we throw those photocopies out. 759 01:48:05.978 --> 01:48:13.956 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: and when we're done and return the score without markings. So that's in pristine. 760 01:48:15.018 --> 01:48:26.037 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: says a percussionist. Who's who? I just noticed their pencil marks from 15 years ago on a score that I just bound. 761 01:48:27.548 --> 01:48:29.878 Mark Coulbourne: Alright, Michael! Any final thoughts. 762 01:48:32.948 --> 01:48:39.448 Michael Foley: No, thank you for inviting me. I I I appreciate all the interest in music binding. I play guitar myself, so 763 01:48:39.788 --> 01:48:42.048 Michael Foley: I have a personal stake in the issue. 764 01:48:42.058 --> 01:48:43.118 Michael Foley: Thank you, Mark. 765 01:48:44.408 --> 01:48:45.238 Mark Coulbourne: Steve. 766 01:48:47.058 --> 01:48:54.868 Steve Quintilian (he/him): This has been super informative for me. I learned a lot from from being here. Thanks for thanks for having me and Alice and Dan, I'll be up 767 01:48:54.928 --> 01:48:58.257 Steve Quintilian (he/him): in your neck of the woods this summer. My partner is from up there. 768 01:48:59.398 --> 01:49:00.118 Steve Quintilian (he/him): Great. 769 01:49:00.998 --> 01:49:01.907 Alice Carli and Dan Lopata: Because of heat. 770 01:49:02.278 --> 01:49:03.008 Mark Coulbourne: Katie. 771 01:49:03.888 --> 01:49:06.907 Katie Risseeuw: I just want to say that music binding is 772 01:49:07.138 --> 01:49:25.257 Katie Risseeuw: you. You can use a lot of creativity with it. And yes, some things are frustrating. But it's also really fun to tell stories about like at a party, and and hope that people don't walk away from you. But yeah, it's just it's it's fun. And yes, some things don't work right. And you're sort of limited by 773 01:49:25.258 --> 01:49:42.098 Katie Risseeuw: what we have. As you know, something that needs to circulate and be used for people. Preservation is access. So yeah, it's fun to sort of compare it to other things we do in the library for different collections. And yeah, it's just creative. 774 01:49:44.728 --> 01:49:45.538 Mark Coulbourne: Peter. 775 01:49:47.140 --> 01:49:56.845 Peter Shirts: Just, I guess, to say that it's the library. So no one's it's the stakes. Aren't that high, really, you know. 776 01:49:57.777 --> 01:50:02.177 Peter Shirts: But but you know, in in in other ways, to preserve 777 01:50:02.578 --> 01:50:06.738 Peter Shirts: for the future generations. You know that that's also important. 778 01:50:08.638 --> 01:50:11.797 Mark Coulbourne: I I agree. Thank you, Peter Kim. Any final thoughts. 779 01:50:12.928 --> 01:50:21.218 Kim Norman: Yeah, Mark, I'm sure we all want to thank you for bringing this group together, planning the whole thing. And it's just been terrific. So all thanks to you. 780 01:50:21.490 --> 01:50:23.398 Mark Coulbourne: Well, thank you all very, very much. 781 01:50:23.790 --> 01:50:35.407 Mark Coulbourne: This has been a terrific terrific opportunity. I'm really happy. We could get everyone together for this. So I'm going to go ahead and stop recording now. I will say that the recording 782 01:50:35.418 --> 01:50:37.848 Mark Coulbourne: probably will take a few days to get processed. 783 01:50:38.241 --> 01:50:42.778 Mark Coulbourne: And I hope to have it in the digital repository by the end of the week. 784 01:50:42.958 --> 01:50:50.077 Mark Coulbourne: But I will make sure to let everyone know once that takes place, and I will be taking a copy of the slides and turning them into a Pdf 785 01:50:50.625 --> 01:50:53.188 Mark Coulbourne: so that they can be shared.