15:59:51 And that will give me a chance to hit the record button. Also, and we'll see the participants like numbers going up this people are coming in so we'll kind of have a sense I think when that flattens out.
16:00:04 All right, it's for start the webinar.
16:00:55 Okay, they are starting then they'll cut this session 15 visual literacy media workshop, you'd like to tech man, a tank bedrock in Harrisonburg spring 2023 for sponsoring this session, and making this virtual conference possible.
16:01:24 Join matter for the Harrisonburg meeting to go into. In March, 2022, The conference that was originally planned for the spring 2020.
16:01:29 Let's cancel to cope with 19.
16:01:31 We are looking forward to visiting this beautiful setting in the heart of the Shenandoah Valley flanked by the Allegheny Mountains to the west and the Blue Ridge Mountains to the east.
16:02:01 Founded in 1779, the city is though colloquially as rock town, or by its nickname, The friendly city.
16:01:54 The conference hotel, but our medicine and Shannon they are where the conference center is conveniently located at the age of.
16:02:03 James Madison University is beautiful in store of campus.
16:02:07 And just a short book of the Culinary Arts District of downtown Paris and Bob Barker calendars for March 24 through 26 2022 and stay tuned for calls for session proposals and conference volunteers.
16:02:28 Today, we will be utilizing the live transcript for this session for accessibility purposes.
16:02:38 If you will like to hide the subtitles, simply click the live transcription button at the bottom of your application, and then select pod. Hide subtitles.
16:02:49 And if your zoom application is not maximized.
16:02:53 You may need to click the three dots iPad to turn off the subtitles.
16:02:59 Please use the q&a feature to pose questions to the instructor, and we will relate those questions to the instructor to close out session.
16:03:11 Finally, please remember to visit our pre recorded poster sessions on the YouTube at the link I'm placing soon in the chat, today's workshop instructor is Hillary Captiva.
16:03:31 There is the chief curator of the division and digital collections for the author library chemical history and science it's the history.
16:03:38 Hilary oversees the studies Digital Collections depository, as well as the management of the creation of the audio visual collections.
16:03:58 In addition to a master of Library and Information Sciences science from Rutgers University, Hilary holds an MA in history from Villanova University, and received a BA in history, and English concerned, a history, and English from Dickinson college classes
16:04:12 yours.
16:04:14 Thank you for that introduction and thank you everyone for being here. And joining me this afternoon to talk about visual literacy.
16:04:25 This was a mini workshop that I was originally slated to give in Harrisonburg last spring, but I'm happy to say that even though we are not in person.
16:04:39 Today, I've been able to retain some of the audience participation elements on the zoom.
16:04:46 So I promise it'll be relatively painless. And you'll know when we get to those portions.
16:04:59 All right. So starting off diving right in talking about visual literacy.
16:05:06 So visual literacy stated simply is the ability to read pictorial images and understand how pictures convey information meaning visual literacy it's worth noting can also include the ability to write, or create images.
16:05:25 But for the purposes of today's workshop we're going to focus on the skills used to read and research, images, rather than create them.
16:05:35 Also, I want to note that today I'm going to focus on photographs, which is my area of expertise. The skills that we're going to talk about can be applied to other types of visual materials in your collections.
16:05:50 So the underlying concept of visual literacy, is that photographs are historical records, not just illustrations to be taken at face value. And as historical records, they can be analyzed critically just as you would analyze a document.
16:06:09 And by employing visual literacy skills, you can learn how to read a photograph in order to to unravel the different layers of meaning and the narrative that a photograph tells.
16:06:28 Right. Um, so as john mentioned in the introduction.
16:06:33 I'm a curator at the science, history, Institute in Philadelphia. If you're not familiar, we have a large collection of materials that really span the gamut related to the history of science, with a focus on chemistry, engineering, and the life sciences.
16:06:55 I like to say we have a little bit of everything at the Institute. So we have archival materials Rare Books museum objects, and also audio visual materials, including our photograph collection.
16:07:09 So since the photographs within the collection are going to serve as the basis for today's workshop. I thought I'd share a little bit about them.
16:07:25 And also, I'll mention that all of the photographs that you see in today's presentation, come from the collections at the science, history Institute.
16:07:30 Um, so yeah the photo archive that I manage consists of approximately 115 collections, totaling more than 50,000 photographic prints slides and negatives, the collections that we have generally fall into one of three categories.
16:07:47 There are personal papers from prominent science, scientists and industrialists corporate records, most notably we hold records related to the Dow Chemical Company, as well as the Hercules powder company, which was later known as Hercules Incorporated.
16:08:06 And then also we have some thematic collections. So generally collections around a certain topic. The history of nylon probably being our most notable one.
16:08:19 There's a diversity of subjects represented in the photo collections, including formal and informal portraits of chemists and conferences, as well as other gatherings laboratory facilities and sites of industrial production advertising and marketing materials
16:08:37 which are some of my favorite, and even materials related to the visual history of chemistry. So quite often, I think of that as our series related to the evolution of the periodic table, and other visual elements.
16:08:56 Yeah, so I'm getting into talking about visual literacy, a little more in depth.
16:09:02 So, I'm getting into talking about visual literacy, a little more in depth. So, reading a photograph or other pictorial images can generally be broken down into a three step process.
16:09:11 So step one is going to be, observe the visual elements of the photo, or the item that you're working with. And when I say observe in terms of visual literacy, I'm talking about a deep, kind of observation that will be walking through the day.
16:09:31 So, you know initially approaching an object you really want to study it for one to two minutes, start to form an overall impression, and then examine its features more closely.
16:09:46 Quite often, the way that you might approach this would be to divide the photograph into quadrants and really kind of, you know, study those progressively on to kind of get a sense of what's going on in the image.
16:10:01 And then as you're, you know, examining those features you can start to perhaps make a list of what you see in the photograph.
16:10:08 If you're thinking in terms of, you know, what is it that you're observing or listing. You can really break your observations down into some familiar categories.
16:10:20 And I like to think of these as the who, the what the wear and the when, and I'll be talking about those all a little more in turn.
16:10:30 Also, you want to keep in mind that in forming your initial observations. It's possible to be both general and specific depending upon how much information you have, where you can be specific, you definitely want to be as the details that you're observing
16:10:48 are all points of entry for further research.
16:10:52 So, again, try to be specific, where you can.
16:10:56 And I'll talk about that a little more. When we get into some specific examples.
16:11:18 And here's where you're going to take those observations and start start drawing some initial conclusions based on what you've observed. And then step three is to ask questions you know always kind of one of those essential things that you need to do
16:11:25 when working with historical records and and studying anything in depth, you want to think about, you know, Here's what I'm observing. Here's some initial conclusions that I've reached, but then ask yourself you know what information needs to be verified.
16:11:43 And where can you look for more information.
16:11:49 So, for this photograph here from the institute's collections, I'm going to go through this example of some of those categories of observation and turn.
16:12:03 So as I said, we can generally break it down into who, which is generally going to be the people, the what, which could be activities being depicted events.
16:12:17 Also, objects. We have a lot of sight photographs of scientific instruments and objects in our collections, as well.
16:12:26 Also the were so the place in which, in which a photograph was taken, and the when, which is going to be time.
16:12:37 So yes, starting off with the who, again here we can be a bit general or more specific depending upon the information we have available to us.
16:12:49 So, generally, taking an initial observation of this photograph. I might observe that this photograph includes both men and women, we have the two women in the foreground here, as well as the man working in the background.
16:13:06 I might think about how to characterize the people to picked it, so I might call them employees or technicians or assistance, thinking about the kind of more technical work that based on the nature of my collections, I'm going to assume that they're doing.
16:13:28 then in terms of more specifics.
16:13:32 Again, given the context of the photo. I do know from an inscription on the back that Marian Griffith, is the woman on the left. So that could be you know something to take note of, and an additional avenue of inquiry.
16:13:49 Also, I know that this particular photograph comes from the house chemical company. So we can give a specific designation to them as employees of the house Chemical Company, and knowing that company name given some, some background note, I know that they
16:14:09 produce dies. So we might from our initial observations, consider them die technicians.
16:14:19 Right, in terms of objects. The what of that we're seeing.
16:14:24 So for general, I might think about, you know, what is it what are the objects that the women appear to be working in as well as the objects that they're surrounded by so we could characterize those samples, specimens laboratory equipment.
16:14:43 There's also some glassware. And then if thinking more specifically, again, going back to the context of the DI company. We might begin to infer that they're working with dies.
16:15:00 Perhaps they're working with fabrics, or specifically yarn samples, and these are all just, you know, some kind of initial observations and inferences that we're making that we would research and attempt to verify theater.
16:15:17 In terms of activities and events, we would think here about how we might describe or characterize what they're doing.
16:15:28 So in speaking in general terms, we could see this as an experiment, perhaps a test or a process. If this was an industrial facility perhaps they're processing something.
16:15:41 And then if we were going to think more specifically, and again kind of given the context of the collection.
16:15:48 We might, you know, specifically, call it skiing dying, which was a particular type of activity at the site. And also, knowing, as I'll kind of talk about a little later, that this was the house chemical companies, one of their quality control laboratories,
16:16:10 I might infer that quality control testing is being conducted here.
16:16:22 It looks like someone may have raised their hand.
16:16:27 And I'm not sure if there's. But, oh, I think they had went down so I'm going to I'm going to continue hoping that there's nothing of a technical problem going on but yeah, feel free as I'm talking to put questions as they occur to you in the q amp a,
16:17:01 I'll look at those at the end.
16:16:55 I'll guess I'll hon you have raised your hand. No, I think it was a mistake. I'm sorry. Okay, that's okay, I'm just I'm just trying to try to stay on top of all the information the zoom is giving me so.
16:17:04 Okay, so yeah I think we'll, we'll, we'll continue on talking about place.
16:17:11 So, where.
16:17:13 So again, you know, we can think of this generally we have laboratory industry industrial facility or company plant. Knowing the context. And again, kind of more specifically, this was the customer service and quality control laboratory.
16:17:32 So that would be important to note.
16:17:35 Also, the company itself which is the old house Chemical Company, which I then know from background notes was located in Reading, Pennsylvania. So, you know, thinking in terms of both the place that you're observing in the photograph, but also where it
16:17:55 was situated geographically as well.
16:17:59 And then finally we get to the time, or when of our, our observations, and we can think about time in a few different ways.
16:18:10 So generally, we can observe that based on the windows that we see on the left that it's daytime and assume that this was, you know, normal working hours at the facility, also knowing that we are working with materials from the old house chemical company.
16:18:30 We can think of time in terms of the dates of company operation, which would be 1952 2005, but obviously that is a very wide time range that we're dealing with.
16:18:44 So if we want to try to get more specific.
16:18:47 I would date this photograph as circa 1950s, and generally I'm inferring that from the style of dress, and the hairstyle of the two women that we see, as well as the format of the photograph, which is both black and white, which was more predominant in
16:19:08 that time period. And then also, it's a gelatin silver print, which again is associated with the second half of the 20th century, generally.
16:19:21 Yeah, so a little more about dating photographs from some of those influences that I that I just mentioned.
16:19:30 So clothing and hairstyle especially is a very good way to infer a possible approximate date of a photo.
16:19:42 I kind of think of those as kind of the go to internal clues.
16:19:46 If you do have people depicted. Another good internal clue can be.
16:19:54 If you have automobiles depicted in street views especially, or from a particular geographic locale often working with historic maps to see when certain buildings were present in a neighborhood or on a street.
16:20:16 that can be a great way and great internal clue for dating photos as well.
16:20:21 But thinking in terms of clothing and hairstyle. We have one of my favorite comparisons here to portraits of Hercules powder company later Hercules incorporated staff.
16:20:34 The group on the right. I think of just that classic 1980s shoulder pads and pumps that and also kind of talking about the buildings as an internal clue.
16:20:51 They are posed outside.
16:20:54 A Hercules company headquarters building in downtown wilmington delaware that that was relocated there in the 1980s. So those are all very good clues.
16:21:11 However, you do want to exercise caution when inferring dates as the presence of a particular type of clothing or car type of automobile can indicate perhaps the earliest state of a photo, but not the latest state.
16:21:29 So if you think of that.
16:21:32 You know I feel like we all have kind of those favorite pieces of clothing in our closets, that we can't hold on, can't bear to let go. And, you know, we can often wear them after they have fallen out of general fashion.
16:21:47 So that is just a personal example but something to keep in mind that objects can continue to appear in photos, even after they've fallen out of general fashion.
16:21:59 So you want to kind of exercise caution and be judicious when making kind of assumptions about the date of a photo based on those markers.
16:22:12 Also another key component of dating photographs, is the format.
16:22:19 So photos really reflect the time in which they were taken. And I think they're, they're very interesting and special objects in that way. Because a lot of times, especially coming from a history of science context I think about this a lot.
16:22:37 The format is really the link to the social history of the period, both in terms of the type of object and there's certain formats of photographs that are very associated with particular time periods, but also in terms of the materials that were available
16:22:56 on the history of photography, which is obviously a whole nother workshop is really one of experimentation. So, especially for older photographs, just given you know the the types of materials that were available and then say later, the you know film
16:23:15 formats and things like that.
16:23:19 They're all very good clues to helping you date photographs.
16:23:24 You can also think in terms of how photographs were distributed and displayed, that that can be, you know very tied to the format of the period as well.
16:23:38 I'm thinking about cabinet cards that were historically exchanged and very popular for a certain period of time, and also the format is a clue in terms of who took it.
16:23:52 If you have a photograph that is more professional in nature versus amateur photography, and I'll talk about that a little later. But generally, also, that kind of professional versus amateur can also be a clue as to the purpose, which the photo was taken
16:24:13 for and that opens up new areas of research, but speaking specifically about format here what we're seeing is an example of a format that's very associated with a particular period of time.
16:24:26 So what we have here is a stereo graph. And so these are more commonly printed on these kind of thick card stocks that were slightly curved, and it's a double image and when viewed through a stereoscopic fewer.
16:24:42 It gives the impression of being 3d, um, it's kind of like the viewfinder before the viewfinder was a thing.
16:24:51 It's commonly associated with the late 19th early 20th century, very Victorian era, and primarily used for teaching and home entertainment. And it was really part of this educational movement that emphasize experience as a learning tool, and the particular
16:25:10 photo that we're seeing in this example, it's for a wonderful collection that we got from Oberlin College from the chemistry department there, and it's a whole series it's a set of glass blowing and iron making an old these just sites of industrial production,
16:25:31 and we had a retiring professor at Oberlin who contacted us and was like, I have no idea why we have these and you know do you want them. and as I was explaining to him.
16:25:45 I kind of see stereo graph as the proto PowerPoint, and I said, you probably have them because they were used for teaching, especially within the chemistry department where you're, you're talking about processes like glass blowing the have connections
16:26:00 to chemistry.
16:26:02 So that's just an example of how the format of a photograph can really elucidate its purpose and context, and also give you some clues as to as to its use.
16:26:18 You know could also think about this in terms of say a series of negatives, which you may have in your collection that can indicate a professional photo shoot.
16:26:27 Whereas a series of snapshots, especially you know the kind of Kodak that we're all familiar with that suggests a more more casual interaction.
16:26:38 But yeah, just at the end of the day the format of a photograph should really prompt you to ask what's what events or activities led to the creation of the photo, which then provides some clues for discovering and images original purpose, or function.
16:26:59 Right, so then kind of wrapping up with this particular example. So we've made her observations, and then it's time for our inferences, and our and our questions.
16:27:11 So, based on our observations. What could we infer from this photo.
16:27:18 So some of the things we might infer is that this is a company that manufactured dies, knowing that it's the customer service and quality control laboratory, we might infer that there was an emphasis on the quality of the dyes.
16:27:35 Perhaps this was a central element of the company's business model.
16:27:41 And also we can infer that the company employed both men and women. And we might start to ask, you know what was the role of each in the laboratory. Our at the company.
16:27:53 And then in terms of, you know, the asking questions, you want to think about what questions does the photo raised in your mind, where could you find answers to them.
16:28:05 And what information needs to be verified.
16:28:08 So some examples. Did the company make dies, and didn't make those exclusively or didn't make other products.
16:28:17 Where was the quality control laboratory located. As I mentioned earlier, we know that the house Chemical Company was based in Reading, Pennsylvania, but I don't know if all of their facilities were based there on including the one depicted here also
16:28:36 start you know you might ask, quality control laboratory.
16:28:40 was this common or was it an unusual feature, and also how was quality control defined.
16:28:48 If the technicians that were looking at our testing for something. What is it that they are testing for.
16:28:57 And so you'll see that some of those questions that I just asked, they get into say more abstract concepts.
16:29:07 So, and I think of this in terms of of verses about, you know, they're touching on not just what we can see in the photo, ie, what the photo is of, but also other layers of meaning, which is really what we're trying to get at with visual literacy.
16:29:26 So those other layers of meaning in terms of what the photo is about. And you know what information, especially from a research perspective.
16:29:37 Yeah, can it can it give to us. So I might you know think about this photo as a photo of di technicians at the art house chemical company, but because of the work they're doing the company's choice to document it.
16:29:53 I'd say this is a photo about things like material culture, about branding.
16:30:00 You know there's issues here of customer service and authenticity and also in some ways it's a photo about gender about the role of men and women in the laboratory.
16:30:12 And what we're seeing what we're seeing them do in that space.
16:30:18 Right. Um, so that is a lot of information.
16:30:22 And now it is time for a little audience participation.
16:30:28 So kind of take going off some of the steps that I just shared in terms of observation, and then inference, and asking questions, I'd like everyone to take a look at this photograph and use the chat to just tell me, What do you observe what catches what
16:30:52 catches your eye, and maybe what questions.
16:30:56 Does this photograph, bring to mind. So, I'll give you a moment to kind of start putting some thoughts in the chat. And then, then all look through those.
16:31:11 Now we've got some comments on the hair and the clothes, saying that those immediately stick out, people are thinking 1960s or 70s, the machinery.
16:31:24 Someone says that the woman is clearly posed rather than engaging with work. So that's interesting.
16:31:31 There's a question, Is this an ad or a promotional piece.
16:31:36 Is it a laboratory space.
16:31:40 And is that the model, displaying the machinery.
16:31:43 We've got someone saying a demo, rather than an operation.
16:31:49 Electronics machinery, the guy with the commentary, not wearing lab safe clothing.
16:31:55 Oh, she may be giving a presentation on how to use the computer on that's interesting.
16:32:01 We've got someone says looks like a professionally taken photo 60s haircut fancy dress, typical use of an attractive woman to increase appeal of photo of the machinery.
16:32:17 Yep, thinking this lady is a model rather than employee. The lab looks very clean, noting that it's black and white, asking what is the machinery is a computer or electronic device electronics related bunch of people noting that looks like an advertisement
16:32:36 looks kind of stage dials are making on the machinery people think of audio equipment, noting that the space as well. Later, I think well they did and clean is a good observation.
16:32:51 Oh yeah, friendly photo meant to make the equipment less intimidating, that that's an interesting, so kind of getting into like the staging and the composition, and also perhaps the purpose.
16:33:03 Yeah. Oh, and also someone asking is the machinery, always here because part of it is on a cart, so that that's a good observation if you see where the woman is standing, you can see wheels associated they're unsure what time of day.
16:33:20 It's in taking.
16:33:22 Oh, are they trying to imply that even a woman could operate this machine machinery and there's is there sexism there. I think that's a very good question.
16:33:31 Yeah, and we've got some observations of some class bottles, the cabinet. On the far right.
16:33:39 Yeah, these are all just wonderful, wonderful observations. So hitting on a lot of themes and someone responding on that the bottles might be chemicals, chemicals of some kind.
16:33:56 Yeah, somebody saying, could it be promotional for a newsletter newsletter or magazine perhaps promoting new equipment.
16:34:05 Oh, yeah no good point you can tell the size of the equipment in comparison to the human, so that that's another consideration of maybe why it's being posed also noting that the desk has two drawers, so saturated with it might be a chemical laboratory
16:34:23 of some kind.
16:34:25 Yeah. Oh so yeah it's a good point writing on the machines, that's always a good clue we won't. We won't zoom in today but I will confirm that if you were to look at this in our digital collections, you could use our image viewer to get cut deep in there.
16:34:40 Also looking at the table itself in comparison to the cart on wheels doesn't look very easily movable also noting, it seems like a professional photo.
16:34:52 Careful lighting and pose. And then someone asking how would you go about verifying what these machines are exactly um so these are all wonderful observations, very good questions.
16:35:05 So yeah, I will tell you a now a little more about what we're seeing.
16:35:11 So this photograph was really the genesis for of this workshop, and my work into visual literacy generally.
16:35:24 And, you know, it was one of those that you look at it, and I initially like you know people in my institution were like, oh, like look at look at her with her little black dress and the scientific instrument.
16:35:39 And, you know, then you start, you have to stop and think about it in the way that we were just doing and you were kind of like, All right, like what what's really going on here.
16:35:49 So this photo comes from a collection from the Bendix Corporation, which they were a maker of scientific instruments and their signature instrument was the time of flight mass spectrometer, and gas chromatograph, which is the various apparatus that we're
16:36:14 we're seeing here. And as a few people pointed out, if we were to zoom in. There's a couple points at which we would be able to read the writing, and it's often is the name of the machine and a particular edition of it and kind of also what you know kind
16:36:39 of model was the dominant model that that the company was producing at that time.
16:36:48 Also, we're kind of thinking. So that's also just an element of, say of corporate history. Like I said that I'll talk about a little later about utilizing other materials within your collection.
16:37:03 To learn more about photographs because photographs don't exist in a vacuum.
16:37:05 But yeah, if you have, you know, corporate records if you see like a name.
16:37:11 In this case, like Bendix on the machines can do some some searching to see you know what was that Corporation, what kind of material instrumentation did they produce.
16:37:23 And what were there times of operation.
16:37:29 Also, I can't confirm as many people suspected that the woman here is a model. She's not an actual laboratory.
16:37:41 Assistant, and so of course you know we've got the pose.
16:37:47 and the style of dress.
16:37:50 Also I, we don't have an example of this, using this particular photo. But we do have some of the corporate brochures and instrumentation manuals.
16:38:05 Were these were specifically these types of photographs with the, with the women posing were reprinted in instrumentation manuals and brochures, for marketing, marketing purposes.
16:38:20 And also, you know, as somebody pointed out, it looks very clean.
16:38:26 It looks very well lit I've had I've had.
16:38:30 When I've given this presentation for retired scientists, they are. That's the thing that they go to right away is that, you know, it's just it's too clean, it's not like an actual working environment, and also beyond just being well lit.
16:38:48 When I've given this presentation before somebody pointed out the shadow that you can see for the woman on the floor, and also for some of the the table that indicating that it's it's professional kind of studio studio lighting.
16:39:09 I have a good question in the chat Do you know if the model was connected to the company, ie, a wife or daughter of someone on a high level company position or someone who was hired for the photo by the company does a very good question to which I don't
16:39:26 know the answer.
16:39:29 I would infer just because we have a number of photos like this, with different women in them.
16:39:38 I'm going to assume that they're models, but that's, that's a good, a good question and one of those maybe unanswerable questions, um, but it wouldn't be so out of the norm on that it that it could have been something connected with the company as well.
16:39:55 Yeah, so it said that that was all of very very good observations, brought to the fore here. And then also, you know, kind of talking about some of those about questions.
16:40:10 You know clearly here there is a bit of a story of gender and sexism. You know, I've had people ask when I present these photos like, why, why is she standing next to this, the scientific instrument and you know it's, and you know what is the purpose
16:40:29 of including photos like these and instrumentation manuals and and marketing companies and.
16:40:39 And I always just like to say, you know, sex sells and having, you know, lovely ladies posing with products, rather it's a very technical scientific instrument or, you know, a soda or a TV, that just is, you know, one of those just enduring enduring elements
16:41:04 of our of our culture. So, yeah, yeah I guess it came out of the same idea as a female modeling in car ads, and things like that. We also have some, some ones that I would say two or just even more posed on this.
16:41:22 And also one where Yeah, very prices right models, Mad Men, and this this I feel like is, you know more of the little black dress is, is is kind of seems somewhat professional but we have some where you're just like that is clearly not really a lab coat,
16:41:42 like they tried to go for a lab coat but it's just way too short and things like that so yeah thank you all for playing along with the exercise.
16:41:53 And yeah, just some wonderful conversation and engagement in the chats and also just thinking about corporate culture as well.
16:42:03 You know those are some great points some I see one comment saying that the eg bud company used to use their staff as models for passenger car riders and interiors regularly.
16:42:14 Yeah, I've definitely heard that as well, especially related to the production of nylon and some of the secretaries in the offices, you know, being being used as standards as models as well.
16:42:31 So that's a neat neat observation there. So, all right, um so yeah now we'll transition a little bit to some tips for researching images.
16:42:44 So yeah, as I said earlier, reading and researching photos goes hand in hand.
16:42:51 Really with any kind of historical research. It's important to question your initial assumptions and find additional evidence to support your, your conclusions.
16:43:04 Also, as I'm sure many of you know from working with photo collections.
16:43:10 It's very, very true that photos often have incomplete or missing information that necessitates additional research for us to understand the whole picture so to speak.
16:43:24 So some just kind of general tips for starting off.
16:43:30 Quite simply, first is to make a list of search terms. And this is really derived from those initial observations. So the people objects activities, places and events that you identified when reading the photo, always think about how those can be translated
16:43:49 into search terms.
16:43:52 Also, as I mentioned earlier when we were talking about format. It's important to consider who created the image and its intended purpose. And this is something that you know we were talking about a bit in our exercises.
16:44:08 Sometimes, and when thinking about creator, you may have a name or a partial name for a photographer, and that can be a good, a good lead.
16:44:18 But sometimes it's really just a matter of considering whether this image is an amateur snapshot, or professional photography, and specifically if you conclude that an image was taken for professional purposes.
16:44:33 This might lead you to consider where photo might have been published, or circulated, and that can be an avenue for additional info.
16:44:43 You know, as I mentioned from our exercise. While the specific photo we were looking at is, is not documented our collection in this way, we do have other photographs within the instrumentation manuals and advertising brochures on that have similar photos,
16:45:01 so that that certainly is is helpful in terms of context. Also, especially working with corporate collections, such as the photo we see here from the Hercules powder company.
16:45:14 Quite often those photographs will be produced for say company newsletters or magazines that then often can be a treasure trove of information.
16:45:28 Also, you want to remember to check both the front end the back for visual and textual clues.
16:45:35 I don't know how many times I've had to remind researchers that as stirring as the photograph is definitely flip it over and see if you've got any inscriptions or notations, which is not uncommon.
16:45:51 Also, you might have a photographer studio imprint on the back, which is really a breadcrumb trail that can lead you to other avenues of inquiry.
16:46:03 Just remember though with notations and inscriptions to be cautious and Don't believe everything that you read this is kind of, again, thinking in terms of that, you know, look at your initial leads, but then try to find supporting information, because
16:46:23 again as archivists we know, quite often, people are boxing up materials and donating them to us, perhaps towards the end of their career, and they may be capturing photos long after they forgotten the exact names and dates.
16:46:43 So it's always important to you know take that as kind of a starting that of information, but also book to verify as well.
16:46:52 And then also, again you want to examine related materials both published and unpublished.
16:46:59 It's rare that photos exist in a vacuum.
16:47:02 Quite often they are part of collections of other materials. And also, again, could have been created for purposes of publication. And that can be some additional context there.
16:47:16 So, and even just as the example from the house company company that I shared.
16:47:21 There's can be information at the collection level that can provide some basic content and context for an image.
16:47:31 Some other considerations to keep in mind would be, is the photo posed or candid again this goes to the purpose and function of the photo. That was something that we were discussing with our exercise, and I think it also could be fair to ask here is does
16:47:52 this appear to be people in the process of doing actual actual work, or are you know they perhaps employees but employees who, you know, are aware that they're being photographed, and that this was you know perhaps a bit of a stage environment that's
16:48:11 being captured.
16:48:13 Also you can consider Is there anything unusual or a typical about the photo. And this could be things like clothing and style and dress. Also, the presence of men and women, you know, just kind of anything that seems like you know it sticks out, or what
16:48:34 makes you question and want to learn more.
16:48:38 And then also, it's important to think, have you seen similar photos in your collections I put this photo be part of a series.
16:48:48 Because related images can really help improve understanding of a single images purpose and subjects on so here we've been studying, that this photo in detail, but I will now share that it is part of a series taken at the old house.
16:49:07 Chemical Company laboratory, the quality assurance laboratory, and you'll see that these these other photos do give us a broader sense of the, the work that was happening there.
16:49:21 And then the resources and who, who was engaged with it.
16:49:28 Right. So with that, we've come to our second exercise.
16:49:33 So here with this photograph. I'm also curious again to ask, How would you describe what you see and what questions does the photos, raise in your mind and kind of also what assumptions might need verification.
16:49:55 So I'll give a little a moment for those to be posted in the chat, and we'll see what you have to say, oh yeah we're so we're quantifying the males and females.
16:50:11 1940s.
16:50:11 Wondering if it's a staff photo, if the man might be their boss, noting that they're all in white, and that it maybe looks a little less candid, because one of the women isn't looking at the, the camera bottles and books in the back.
16:50:30 Probably the boss and support staff.
16:50:33 The white outfits thinking hospital or clinic, likely a doctor and the women are nurses to not see max day time based on the light from the left.
16:50:45 Oh, any identifying info on the bottles or labels, that's a good question.
16:50:50 Perhaps a pharmacy, wanting to know, maybe more about the specific roles of the men and women.
16:50:58 Thinking 90s hairstyle, noting that only some of the women are wearing what we consider lab coats and also that the woman in the center appears to be holding something, noting that in contrast to the other one we've got a window light.
16:51:15 And no, no flash, and also the books on the shelf nurses and doctors quite hairstyles imply more leisure. That's interesting.
16:51:26 Yeah, so it's also an assumption about you know what do people look like at work versus breath Oh someone wearing if she's holding a mouse, which I'm not, I'm not sure about that.
16:51:41 Yeah. At the women look quite young. So yeah, that's an it's a perhaps also in contrast to the man standing there.
16:51:52 Yeah, so I think it's interesting to me and the event Marion's office in you can definitely see that we're, you know, making some assumptions, I think, based on the context of someone asked perhaps students and teacher.
16:52:10 I think we're also seeing that on making some assumptions, which I find to be very common with people engage with at the Institute, about, when did the lab coat.
16:52:21 Come, you know into existence and and what people might have been expected to were in a laboratory.
16:52:30 Yeah, wondering if there's an occasion for such a portrait, that's that's a good question as well.
16:52:37 Yeah, or it could have been a place where lab experiments were done on animal subjects including mice, noting that they're not racially diverse. That's a good observation to.
16:52:52 And, oh somebody say me feels Russian or Eastern European.
16:52:54 Yeah, having some recognition there.
16:52:59 Yeah, and I think it's it's interesting, because I think it's some also just the comment about it not being a racially diverse group. I think it's worth, you know, noting as kind of like I was saying to that something like it was unusual in a photo and
16:53:15 then you can think about you know what appears, what appears to not be and and that that's important as well.
16:53:23 Yeah. Oh, the, what is splash. Yes, I believe that the, what we're seeing the questions was splashing the woman on the right, or is that photo damage yeah I believe that that is some degradation of the original.
16:53:40 Somebody said maybe it's a yearbook photo, which is, which is an interesting inference, but that would be a you know again like one of those kind of published objects that that could be aligned for further inquiry.
16:53:57 Oh, Gary says probably taken with twin lens reflex camera, noting the square format on yes so that that's another good observation about format.
16:54:07 I didn't talk about this a lot in the format section but definitely the shape, as well as this, the size you can think about, and there are certain shapes and sizes that are common to particular areas, and also the printing paper can also be sometimes
16:54:33 that can be stamped with a brand name, as well as the actual quality of the paper can be a clue as well.
16:54:42 Yeah, we said bottles in the back could be really to science from medicine. Oh I like the highest short much shorter than commonly weren't today on so that's yeah that's a good observation about clothing clothing as well.
16:54:58 So that's yeah that's a good observation about clothing clothing as well. So, yeah, awesome, really, really interesting.
16:55:02 Yeah, we'd have women on the back right is wearing a necklace and hairpiece on perhaps a receptionist versus lab technician. So, yeah, I'd say that's interesting.
16:55:14 If we kind of you know look at kind of the group.
16:55:18 You know whose work we're kind of teasing out whose style of dress stands out to us know stethoscopes or other medical instruments might be pharma rather than medical.
16:55:31 Yeah, woman on the right front right is holding something I can identify that's Yeah, good, good point too.
16:55:39 Yeah, I feel like the woman, all the way on the right might be holding a pen.
16:55:44 But even that would be kind of like an interesting, interesting place. So,
16:55:52 yeah, these are all very good, very good observations.
16:55:57 So, yeah, Um, so I'll tell you now a little bit more about this photograph of donor could be holding glasses that's a good, that's a good point as well.
16:56:08 I didn't I didn't think about that.
16:56:11 Um, so I do find it very interesting, but I, but I did expect this that generally I feel like there is a consensus here that the man being depicted is perhaps the head of the laboratory, or, in some role of authority.
16:56:33 We had a teacher and students was mentioned, and certainly you know we could see that making inferences based on the age, the time period, and also kind of we've had a lot of discussions about about style of dress.
16:56:51 And a lot of the comments that came came in.
16:56:58 Also that you know you're saying that the woman, or perhaps front and center and kind of, you know, thinking about the composition, you know of the group.
16:57:09 So I think the interesting thing is that a lot of the comments were very in line with how this photo had been described for many years.
16:57:19 In our archives. So, I will share that the man that we see is Dr. Michael some Mucci, who was an early.
16:57:34 Kind of pioneer in the treatment of diabetes, with insulin, and he was an Eastern European descent. So shout out to, to whoever made that observation.
16:57:49 And this photograph came from a fragmentary collection related to dr Simone he was not his personal papers, but a younger colleague student who who studied under him assembled fragmentary collection of kind of tracking his life and work.
16:58:13 So obviously he was kind of, you know, the person who was at the center of those materials. And so for many years this photograph was described with very you know very little context, there's an inscription on the back that says Jewish hospital, and that
16:58:31 was the Jewish Hospital of St. Louis, where doctors tomoji worked for time. It is also a teaching hospital.
16:58:41 So, so the student relationship, we don't know for sure but the but that's something that certainly could be true.
16:58:51 And it was described as doctors, some movie with female laboratory assistance, and without any like additional information and context that that was, That was where that was left.
16:59:06 Tim asks Do I know doctors mo geez time employed at years of employment at St Louis hospital, I feel like I have an approximate sense of date.
16:59:17 But I don't recall that we know the exact timeline. So yeah, I'd have to, I'd have to double check that I don't wanna, I don't want to assume facts and evidence.
16:59:27 So yeah we did have like a sense where I think we could date it to like 1940s 1950s, approximately.
16:59:36 So last year for Women's History Month. This has always been one of the most popular photos for for our social media team to share and things of that nature.
16:59:47 But it always bothered me that we didn't know the names of any of the women or who they really were and they were just described as female laboratory assistance.
16:59:56 So last year for Women's History Month, my colleague and I did a crowdsourcing campaign on social media seeing if we could identify some of the women, because we we knew that it was from the Jewish Hospital of St.
17:00:09 Louis.
17:00:10 We knew that it was when doctors emoji worked at the lab. And then there was also as Gary pointed out the square format. And then also, there's a stamp on the back that says Velux, which was this particular type of printing paper that was used around
17:00:29 the 19, the 1940s 1950s.
17:00:33 So we put this out on social media, asking you know, do people recognize or have any leads on any of the women, and eventually. The story was picked up by the st louis ditch dispatch.
17:00:50 And, interestingly, the woman with the flower in her hair and the striped blouse, that there was some discussion of perhaps she was not in an official capacity, because she's you know more colorfully dressed.
17:01:06 She was identified as Dr Irene Carl, who was a PhD in chemistry, who worked at the laboratory. So definitely more in a professional capacity.
17:01:23 Then, then had been assumed both by the inferences that we were making today, as well as the legacy description of the women as female laboratory assistance, but no she was a professional in her own right, and had a career, studying sepsis, and diabetes.
17:01:44 Before she eventually left the profession on to have her family. And so based on the years that she was associated with the hospital and we were put in touch, and it was actually her daughter who identified her.
17:01:59 We were able to date a photo to 1942 1943.
17:02:05 So all of that is just to say that, you know, it is worth. Again, you know, kind of making your initial observations.
17:02:16 But then really digging in asking questions, and just thinking about the own biases that you bring to, to the objects that you work with and the photos in your collection.
17:02:32 And, you know, assumptions, especially that i think you know we're brought to light that we make it institutions like the science, history Institute, about who is a scientist.
17:02:45 And what does a scientist, look like.
17:02:48 So yeah, I hope everyone enjoyed that little, little journey with with this photo, but I was, I was super excited. We didn't have to you know firm expectations that we'd be able to identify any of the women, but even to just identify one and to learn
17:03:06 a little more about her story was very exciting.
17:03:13 Um, so just wrapping up the workshop portion of today.
17:03:18 So I'll just share that, um, all of what I've gone over in today's workshop is really just an introduction to visual literacy. And we have a subject guide available at the URL.
17:03:36 Below that really digs much deeper into the strategies that I shared as well as some case studies.
17:03:46 And, again like I said the inspiration for this was really that photo of the model with the Bendix Corporation instrument, and then a number of years ago I worked with a student intern on to really think about, you know how to introduce this to audiences.
17:04:04 And, and do more and thank you again for sharing. Sharing that in the chat. So yeah, I'd really encourage you to dig into the guide if you're interested in learning more and thinking about how you might introduce this topic to students and researchers
17:04:22 working with your own collections. And just to say a little bit on that score.
17:04:29 I think you know the best place to start is just to think about those photos in your collection that invite scrutiny.
17:04:37 You know we're something seems like there's a bigger story there, or, you know, it looks like you could you know burn war that There's more than meets the eye.
17:04:50 And also think about photos that connect to other materials in your collection, rather than just viewing photographs in isolation, which I hope some of the examples I provided today really give you a sense of how you can put the photos in your collections
17:05:09 in conversation with some of the other materials.
17:05:16 And with that, I will say thank you and thank you, especially for playing along with our with our exercises, and thank you also for the appreciations I hope that this proves like useful to you, you can always feel free to get in touch and reach out.
17:05:36 And also, I thought it'd be fun to share this information, this photo from a 1960 conference, which harkens back to the days that we were all in person for our for our conferences there.
17:05:52 So from here I will
17:05:56 transition to checking out the q amp a.
17:06:01 And so I will, an eel hands going to be backing me up in case there's there's anything I don't see.
17:06:07 So the first question when teaching visual literacy, how much information do you provide, would you show the back of the photograph or the bibliographic record when teaching literacy, or would you hold that until later in the process.
17:06:22 So that's a really good question. um, I hate to say it depends.
17:06:29 But I think to some degree, it does depend on.
17:06:34 As you could see, I think, in today's presentation.
17:06:38 I did hold back some information on in some instances, for the purposes of the exercise. So I do think that that's one strategy. I also think it depends kind of on the audience.
17:06:54 You know, I think, if you're maybe working with students for whom this is maybe a newer concept, providing them with some more context and kind of breadcrumbs that can perhaps lead them or illustrate areas of further inquiry can be quite helpful, because
17:07:15 you know sometimes you can kind of just throwing a photo at somebody and they because they like where do I even start that you know kind of giving them some of that context on they ultimately, I think it depends kind of on your audience, and also the
17:07:31 photos that you that you choose, you know, if we were in person I think it might have been fun to you know be able to look at like the back of some of the photographs, or if I had access to those trade catalogs, with the model.
17:07:49 You know we could provide some more additional context.
17:07:52 But I also thought that that archivists would be willing to go on, on the ride with me of me with holding some information, and then parsing it out. So I hope that that's helpful.
17:08:07 And then the next question from David, um, do you recommend, or have you created guidelines and or worksheets for describing visual resources for example tools that facilitate effectively processing these items.
17:08:22 That's a real. That's a really good question too. Um, so I would say that my Bible for that is the photographic like kind of care, care and of collections photographs from the Society of American archivists.
17:08:44 That was a resource that I purchased early on in my curatorial career.
17:08:51 And it really is soup to nuts, the care and description processing reference work. There's also a chapter on reading photographs, which I consulted when I got into visual literacy.
17:09:13 So I would say that as well.
17:09:10 In terms of kind of guidelines, um, yeah something that I developed earlier on.
17:09:18 And when I was at the Institute, I was dealing with a Legacy Collection of where photographs would be removed and treated separately from the archival collections from which they came and the finding needs would literally say something like, photographs
17:09:36 were removed and removed and treated separately.
17:09:40 And that was it. So I did develop again kind of consulting some of those Saa resources. The visual resources association is also a great resource for visual materials.
17:09:53 I kind of, you know, looked at what are the kind of specific guidelines for creating I created finding is that were specific to the photographs from from those archival collections.
17:10:08 And you know kind of thinking about like what's important to describe. And a lot of that is very has a lot of parallels. I think to just any kind of archival material just you know what is important about the content.
17:10:22 What would researchers be interested in. But yeah, I would definitely say that the, the essay a guide to photograph collections is a great place to start.
17:10:35 Yeah.
17:10:35 And then our next question from Alexis, how do you title photographs that do not have captions. I work in a photo archives and we title images know captions as photograph of etc etc.
17:10:50 Yeah, I mean I think that that you know we think of that as a derived title.
17:10:57 So, yeah, that kind of, you know, again, I think thinking of the elements like you know what is it what's important about this, what do you want to be discoverable certain things that I definitely work on into it a title, and then expand upon in the description
17:11:17 are.
17:11:18 If people are present, and especially if, if we, if we know their name. I use the name, regardless of whether you know that person is considered important in the title.
17:11:34 Also, a lot of photos I work with, it's, you know, wherever they taken.
17:11:40 And so I might you know say glass factory or analytical laboratory at Dow Chemical Company, and be I think really thinking about those who, what, where, when, and of course I always have photographs that are just mysteries.
17:12:02 So, I mean, it might be something as simple as an identified woman with scientific instruments.
17:12:10 But you know still hitting athletic, the cut some of the key elements on even, you know, that would be an example of one of those more general
17:12:21 guidelines and then, you know, we be as specific as we can but sometimes it's general so you know some of the things we were talking about in the exercises of, you know, I see a woman.
17:12:33 I see glassware.
17:12:35 I, you know, and kind of making inferences from there. And I should just say I'm also just happy to share any of my guidelines. my guidelines documentation for described for description meta data is one of my passions, so please feel free to reach out,
17:12:53 if that would that would be of use.
17:13:07 Then, looks like the next question we have relates back to the 80s ladies.
17:13:07 So I'll go back to our 1950s verses 1980s here.
17:13:13 So Tim asked do you know if any of the people in the 1980s photo might have also appeared, albeit younger in the one on the left from the 1950s, that is a very good question.
17:13:24 Um, so kind of getting into a little the context I did not share.
17:13:31 I'm going to say that I don't think that um there's any overlap with the groups, just because the one from the 50s is specifically, the research library staff at the Hercules companies experimental station, as it was called where they would do a lot of
17:13:56 their research and development and they had a supporting research library.
17:14:02 Where is the group on the right is from like the corporate headquarter offices, so just based on what I know about the company structure.
17:14:12 Those I think are to, you know, kind of distinct units on so I don't think that there would be any overlap, but that also is a good, a good point about context as well.
17:14:24 Yeah. And then we have another metadata question do you use a specific descriptive controlled vocabulary.
17:14:32 Yes, so I do a lot of our digitization of work. So we have, Dublin Core metadata standards for that. And then for, say, finding aids or Mark catalog records.
17:14:50 I'm user following DAX describing archives content standard or mark, depending on the nature, the nature of the record. But again, if you get in touch.
17:15:04 I am very happy to share more documentation on that.
17:15:10 Okay, so then we have a great question from Betsy, when sharing photos with the public. Do you have to worry about copyright violations.
17:15:19 So, I, I'm going to out myself as a firm believer in fair use.
17:15:29 When it comes to archival archival materials, and the work that we do.
17:15:36 We have a very robust commitment to open access at the science, history Institute, all of the images in our digital collections are available for download freely available for download.
17:15:50 Regardless of whether they're under copyright or not. And that is also an onus that we put on the user or the patron. We provide what information we can.
17:16:05 And, but generally, you know, we don't. We're not we are not the copyright holders in most instances, and we do not assert one way or the other, you know permission to publish and we kind of guide users through making those determinations.
17:16:22 The only other thing I'll say about copyright is for the nature of our collections, which are heavily 20th century and very say second half of the 20th century.
17:16:37 The majority of the photo collection I categorize as no known copyright, meaning it's likely out of copyright.
17:16:47 Because especially from the 1940s to the 70s. There were very specific requirements, or if a photo was published it had to have a very specific line or copyright notice or statement.
17:17:03 Oftentimes, I've tried to look look up renewals.
17:17:07 You know, and you don't find one that kind of thing.
17:17:10 So it's like we oftentimes we lack that smoking gun that will say one way or the other.
17:17:17 But again, it's just it's such a collection that will just kind of never know definitively. So we really just try to engage people in conversations about about fair use, and and things like that.
17:17:34 Right, um so yeah we just have a couple more questions here.
17:17:39 So Matthew asks how often might you find information on the back of photographs or there are occasions when the information might not actually be relevant to the photograph or be at all helpful in describing or identifying it.
17:17:53 What do you do and encountering this challenge or issue.
17:17:58 You know, it really depends on the collection.
17:18:01 As far as the information on the back.
17:18:05 I'd say it's more common, perhaps, at least for me with the corporate collections that I work with, because again, they might have been work for hire.
17:18:16 So, a photographer might have stamped or, you know, there's oftentimes the kind of office that the photographs lived in at the corporation, they were making notations for when we're the photograph was used, or an approximate date.
17:18:36 Yeah, so it really, it really depends.
17:18:40 I'm not sure if I think about ones that maybe with information that's not actually relevant.
17:18:49 I think it's more often that the handwriting can be difficult to read, which I'm sure we've all encountered.
17:18:55 So that's like its own challenge, I'd say more times. The kind of challenge that you run into is the one I talked about earlier in terms of not knowing you know for certain that this information is accurate.
17:19:15 Like, even with the example from Dr. Some og and the Jewish hospital that I shared earlier, you know, again, just kind of thinking about the chain of custody of the photographs and you know that it wasn't dr some oj himself who who curated this collection
17:19:35 and donated to us that it was an associate and, and that he was not a contemporary necessarily a doctor some og and, you know, so maybe I was, you know, there was a degree to which we had to look like, what is this the Jewish hospital How did he know,
17:19:52 that kind of thing. And, you know, do some do some research there so that can be challenging.
17:19:58 I often do find that with in the Hercules collection.
17:20:05 There's a series of their photographs from various.
17:20:10 It's their exhibit displays from various professional conventions and quite often.
17:20:19 You know it might be like the both these photos say they're from the St. Louis convention of 1953, but I was like those are obviously very different displays.
17:20:31 So kind of again like just looking at things for the critical eye, and then I'm digging a little more into the collection.
17:20:47 Right. And then, it looks like getting through some of the final questions here. What do you do in situations when you're working with photographs that have very specific materials processes, etc.
17:21:00 and you don't know the jargon. Is it better to more generally, in terms of description use an umbrella search or guests at those terms for specificity of your metadata.
17:21:12 Yeah, so I was assuming that I can ask someone for help with that jargon.
17:21:16 So I think that is a good question. Um, I will say, the image permanence Institute, the visual resources Association, the SAA
17:21:30 guys guides that I, they mentioned earlier, if you're interested in learning more about specific photos materials or processes.
17:21:40 Those are very rich resources and I've certainly consulted them on in my career.
17:21:46 But I also. I also come from the philosophy of.
17:21:52 I think about is it important how how specific Do you need to get and isn't important like you know a lot of researchers it, they're more focused on content, even though format is important content is what they're looking for first and aren't researchers
17:22:13 aren't necessarily going to perhaps know those specific format so I use that judiciously or I use it as say a supplementary term.
17:22:27 Whereas, everything is within like the bucket of photographs.
17:22:36 They're going to be searching for photograph. I'm going to primary use photograph.
17:22:43 And that's also I think something you can think about where do you put that information.
17:22:50 You know if we're thinking in terms of like a facet that people just, you know, want to browse in the digital collections, and you know photograph is what they're familiar with that's fine and then I can note, a specific format.
17:23:02 If I think it's important, like in the example of the stereo graphs in the description. So I think it's also a question of if you're going to use jargon.
17:23:14 You know we're, we're Can you put it in a way that makes note of it, but also keeps your records, you know, broadly accessible for an audience that may not be familiar with that.
17:23:29 And then finally came to the last question.
17:23:37 When you are preserving photographs, how do you manage collections that might have different sites photographs. So that's a good question that's more of a processing question.
17:23:44 Um, I would say that
17:23:47 I haven't had to deal with that.
17:23:52 So much just because a lot of times. Well it depends on the time period that a collection spans.
17:23:59 Because you know if it's if it's a wide time period, we might find a lot of different formats and sizes. But for, say, a shorter time period oftentimes is very, very consistent and you know by I now I can kind of like tell like, that's an eight by 10
17:24:15 kind of thing.
17:24:25 You know sizing things appropriately. And then if you have to. If the size or the format kind of necessitates a certain arrangement. I'm just documenting that in your, in your finding need.
17:24:41 And, you know, making sure again that those pathways in terms of content are accessible. So, you know, perhaps, if I've got, you know, a couple different boxes that speak to say advertising for Corporation.
17:24:58 And you know I've got an album and then I've got filmstrips and then I've got Prince over here, just depending on how those are arranged, I'm making sure that in the finding it intellectually, I'm pointing people to to the different places.
17:25:16 But again, any of the resources that I mentioned earlier from Saa or the image permanence Institute, they can really get more into like say conservation and preservation, as well.
17:25:30 So, yeah, when I see that people shared some link to the image permanence Institute Yeah, which is really a great resource.
17:25:41 Yes. So, I think that that's all our questions.
17:25:46 And please do get in touch if you have any other questions or anything else to share, and from here I'll turn it over to ill Han to close us out.
17:26:08 Thank you. Thank you so much. It was a very important to entertaining in the workshop, your email is there if anybody wants to reach out to your day. He is the best way, at least a corporate library a guy.