15:59:59 Okay.
16:00:01 So, are we ready to go.
16:00:04 Everybody ready. I'm gonna hit the record button.
16:00:07 And you're going to start it, we're ready I'm ready.
16:00:09 Okay.
16:00:14 Alright recording has started, and I'm going to open up the webinar.
16:00:21 I'm going to mute me.
16:00:56 We started hearing okay just watching the participants come in. Good afternoon, everyone.
16:01:03 My name is Robin box, I'm at the National Archives and Records Administration, but in this role today I'll be serving as moderator for today's panel.
16:01:12 First I'd like to thank the Merrick steering committee and the Merak virtual program committee for all their behind the scenes work to pull the conference together.
16:01:20 I know this year has been challenging for everybody and I know that behind the scenes there's been a ton of effort to make to pull off a spring 2021 conference.
16:01:30 I am very much looking forward to seeing all my friends in archives colleagues in the fall meeting and hopefully that will be in person.
16:01:38 This is session for archives and foyer in the post unite the right rally era. I'd like to point out that we will be utilizing the live transcript for this session for accessibility purposes.
16:01:50 If you would like to hide the subtitles, simply click the live transcription button at the bottom of your application, and select high subtitles.
16:01:59 And if your zoom application is not maximizing, you may need to click on the three dots are the more icon to turn off the subtitles.
16:02:09 Please use the q amp a feature to pose questions to the panel, I will relay those questions to our panelists as we close out this discussion.
16:02:18 So first I'd like to get started by having each of the panelists introduce themselves and I'll go.
16:02:23 So alphabetically by first name and that puts Alan on the spot first.
16:02:29 Thank you. I'm Alan during heart I am executive director of the Virginia Freedom of Information Advisory Council. We are a legislative branch agency that's been in existence since 2000 primary missions are foyer education and producing advisory opinions,
16:02:47 answer a lot of questions by phone and email.
16:02:49 But I should clarify before we even start, we are not an enforcement body I got that question earlier today.
16:02:57 We do Virginia foil only not federal other states, and we do not investigate or enforce anything we're here to help people understand and comply with the law
16:03:10 and Megan.
16:03:12 Hello, my name is Megan Rhine. I'm with the Virginia Coalition for open government. We are a nine nonprofit that's been around since 1996 This is our 25th anniversary year.
16:03:26 We do a lot of the same stuff that Alan does but we get to advocate, where the government office does not get to do that.
16:03:35 And we hold lots of conferences and do a lot of education for citizens and reporters and government as well.
16:03:45 But whereas Allen is the, the expert that government folks go to I tend to get the reporters and the citizens more often coming to me So between the two of us we hopefully cover Virginia with the correct information about what the Virginia freedom of
16:04:02 Information Act is all about.
16:04:05 Thank you. And last but not least, Tim. Okay, well thank you Irene, I'm Tim Baker I'm first of all I'm delighted to be with you this afternoon. I am the state archivist for Maryland my official title is state archivist and commissioner of land patent.
16:04:25 And it occurred to me just before we started that this is probably be my last presentation, formally in. In, a capacity of state archivist as I am retiring from State service.
16:04:42 At the end of June so happy to be with you here and look forward to the discussion.
16:04:50 And as a fellow Maryland dirt cam and former employee of the Maryland State Archives, thank you for your, your service there.
16:04:57 I wanted to recognize that and thank you for that for me.
16:05:01 The first question we have, as, as a tee off question is what are the differences in Freedom of Information Act statutes between Maryland and Virginia and I'll just open that up to anyone.
16:05:14 Well, I can start.
16:05:17 I think one of the things that's unique about Maryland is we have a, a body within the Office of the Attorney General, that is the title is arms buds Minh, and for Pia, and she oversees a PCI compliance board which here to for has really been serving,
16:05:44 mostly in a, in a capacity of a mediator, and this past year actually our legislative session is winding up tonight at midnight.
16:05:58 And they did, seek a bill that will.
16:06:04 i. It has passed, I'm not sure if the governor's signed it yet but it would require each custodian to adopt the policy of proactive disclosure of public records, and it would also require agencies to publish on a website, each year.
16:06:24 Information about the preceding years.
16:06:28 Pa requests and their disposition so I don't know if that's something that, that is unique. I think the bill also look to strengthen the PTA compliance boards, strengthen their ability to provide
16:06:46 some greater amount of review over, not just the problematic pih requests from coming from the public or complaints coming from the public but also to mediate on behalf of agencies if the agencies feel that they are not being treated.
16:07:09 Quite right so I'll just wrap up real quickly with in terms of this proactive disclosure, I find it interesting because I think it really is something that an archives does and should do and that is I've always viewed the Maryland State Archives as not
16:07:24 really having to comply with public information act at all because we exist, to provide access to the records, and you can come and peruse our catalogs and sit with us all day long and request all the records you want and and we'd be happy to serve them
16:07:43 up to you. So, but I think a proactive disclosure might be something that's unique and I'm really looking forward to hearing, Megan and Alan's perspective on that.
16:08:01 I guess I'll go and ask about just a little bit about Virginia law.
16:08:06 Yeah, Virginia foyer is definitely reactive and that everything we do under FOIA is driven by a request as far as public records.
16:08:15 There's only a couple limited posting requirements. That would be affirmative but those are things like your for your rights and responsibilities that are required to be posted about public bodies.
16:08:27 There's a limited posting requirement for meeting minutes for state level executive branch agencies.
16:08:37 But otherwise, I mean, for the most part, everything is reactive and that it's driven by a request.
16:08:40 I would also note, especially for those familiar with federal Oya, and some other states where they have fairly, you know, broad exemptions but very few of them, maybe a dozen or so.
16:08:52 Virginia is different in that most of our exemptions are written so that their specific as to both the type of record which they apply and which agency or agencies are allowed to use them.
16:09:04 But because of that, we have a lot of them. The last time I counted. We had a total of I think 148 exemptions, plus two prohibitions and foyer. And I would also just because it's important to note that distinction there, the exemptions are discretionary
16:09:21 in that they allow records to be withheld, but they don't require them to be withheld. Whereas prohibitions actually say You shall not release. And there are now two of those in foil.
16:09:31 Several outside of foil, but it's mostly, a lot of what I deal with is just specific exemptions, and whether any given exemption applies to any particular record.
16:09:46 I think what I would add to what Alan says is that in Virginia, Maryland, Virginia and Maryland and just about every other state share the same basic structure or policy, I should say.
16:10:01 You'll get varying lengths and varying provisions but all of them are geared towards this notion of these are public records pretty much anything generated by the government in the course of its business.
16:10:13 These are public records.
16:10:16 And these statutes are mechanisms for you as citizens media, businesses, other public and government officials to ask for and receive these records the records are presumed to be open.
16:10:31 But then as Alan mentioned there may be exemptions that can be chosen, but to use to withhold information but aren't required to. And then there are prohibitions throughout the rest of the statutes.
16:10:45 And like I said that's pretty much how they operate all over the country, whether we call it a Public Information Act or whether we call it for you, or in Pennsylvania I believe it's called the right to know law and Utah, I think they call it Grandma,
16:11:00 And I'm not exactly sure what that stands for but they call it grandma.
16:11:05 So, the devil is in the details and as I like to say to a lot thing you know to my groups that I speak to, is that no one state really stands out as being the best or the worst.
16:11:20 It's all about how those statutes are applied and what the culture is of transparency and whether people embrace proactive disclosure as Tim mentioned or whether people will
16:11:37 maybe take some interpretations that I would not agree with.
16:11:45 So thank you, then the next question is what is the role of the record schedule in the process of scheduling, or praising records with regards to foil or how do you see those that function intersecting.
16:12:02 I guess I could start in there.
16:12:05 I like to advocate with agencies and the notion that the public access begins with the record retention schedule it's not a part of my urging of agencies to be very proactive in keeping their schedules up to date and and and performing that important
16:12:30 function is that it's not really about just about you, or as the agency it's not about helping it is really about you helping to decide the appropriate retention lengths and what to do with records when they've reached when they're no longer administrative
16:12:48 value to the agency it's really about also about informing the public about what records are being created by their governments So, part of that is really adequately describing the records.
16:13:05 So, not just so that you, you know, you know what it is where it is and why you're collecting that information or generating those records, but that any anybody is the kind of the man on the street, sort of thing that they could read that and understand
16:13:23 it, and make an informed inquiry to get access to those records.
16:13:37 I guess I'll go next.
16:13:44 I will note. Excuse me. My phone's ringing.
16:13:44 before your phone always rings.
16:13:46 But in Virginia, the two laws are actually, we have the Freedom of Information Act which covers access to records. And then we have Public Records Act which covers record retention archiving that kind of stuff.
16:14:00 and the Library of Virginia actually administers the Public Records Act.
16:14:04 There are a few points of intersection. One is that the library in Virginia sits on before the council so we do have direct input from the library.
16:14:12 Another and I'm looking at the code here. If you go to the Public Records Act, it does say in code 42.1 dash 86.1, the agency so sell or give away public records, no agency shall destroy or discard of public record and less and then clause number three
16:14:29 is there was no litigation audit investigation request for records pursuant to the Virginia Freedom of Information Act, or renegotiation of the relevant records retention in this position scheduled pending at the exploration of the retention period for
16:14:42 the applicable records series. So basically, if the record retention period is up but you haven't destroyed it. And you get a FOIA request, you're not allowed to destroy the record until you respond to the request.
16:14:53 The other point of intersection, and this was added in 2019 to Florida.
16:15:07 The Public Records Act in Virginia that my general understanding, there is no private right of action for a violation there so a citizen cannot really sue for destruction of records, under the Public Records Act itself.
16:15:14 However, they added a penalty and foyer, that does allow for a citizen to sue under FOIA if they can prove somebody destroyed a record outside the retention schedule with the intent to avoid for it.
16:15:24 So there is now a remedy for improper destruction of records.
16:15:29 But we haven't seen that applied it was just added in 2019, so I don't have any actual court cases to point to where that's been applied, but it is there in the law now, but otherwise you know we do work sometimes with the Library of Virginia and their
16:15:43 records analysts, oftentimes will go to a training they'll either proceed or follow me.
16:15:48 But otherwise the two are separate.
16:15:53 Tonight tie those together by picking up on you know what Tim said about you know giving the public an idea of like what records are generated by the government.
16:16:06 I get contacted by reporters a lot who you know maybe they you know they don't necessarily know what to ask for or they're trying to get at a specific piece of information and they're not.
16:16:18 They don't even know if government maintains that particular piece and I send them to the records retention schedules, all the time.
16:16:26 I think they are you know they're a really great resource for the public just to see what's what's out there.
16:16:36 I've had several reporters who have said I had no idea that they were required to, you know, file such and such report, and I want to see what that report looks like so.
16:16:48 distinct but def as as Alan pointed out to that there are, there is some overlap there.
16:16:58 So I think that leads us to the next question which are there specific issues with regards to form and format of electronic records that have come up in your experiences.
16:17:13 I've got my microphone on so I'll just go ahead and, and, you know, for me and I get this call probably once a week.
16:17:26 At least
16:17:26 the fees that are associated for retrieving records have been steadily growing over the years, and one of the major drivers, if not the major driver of this is the fact that email in particular but electronic records generally but email in particular
16:17:43 has exploded.
16:17:46 20 years ago when we were, you know, trying to get across that email is a public record it's not different just because it's an electronic format. You know, we thought it was so cool that we were going to be able to type in a few words and, oh look care
16:18:01 of their emails here they are, and this will cost you nothing.
16:18:04 And then we started using email for everything.
16:18:09 And, and when it was used for everything then you also had all the responses to the previous person that you were in this chain with.
16:18:19 So what happens is you know you'll ask for someone will ask for records on this particular topic or person or date or something, And you might only get actually six discrete new information pieces.
16:18:35 But, it generates 15 pages of records to review because each new piece of information includes the previous speakers.
16:18:46 So you've just got the number of records that are having to be reviewed in response to a FOIA request has just gotten out of control.
16:19:00 Yeah, I would agree with Megan.
16:19:04 Everything she said yes.
16:19:07 That's absolutely true.
16:19:09 I would also point out we specifically do address format of electronic records in Virginia is Florida and say, Western has the right to get a public record if it starts out as an electronic form in any format they want, as long as it's a format used by
16:19:26 the public body in the regular course of business. And this is something I encounter often from the public body side, I hear people say oh well I only want to give them a PDF because I'm concerned this person might alter my record.
16:19:42 I don't want to give them the word version they can alter it, and I always let them know you know if they do something bad, with a public record or otherwise, there are other laws to deal with that for that gives them the right so if you use both PDF
16:19:53 and word, it's their choice.
16:19:55 Also I like to point out to people. pdf can be altered. I have an edit PDF button when I pull up a PDF. So just because it's PDF doesn't mean it's protected.
16:20:06 We do get some other weird issues that come up and I'll point out one that was just last week, playing off what Megan said, had a gentleman as a citizen who asked for certain permit information from a state agency, and they gave him more information that
16:20:22 they want it.
16:20:24 And he said, and then they were going to charge him all charge, but he said you know I don't want them charging me to go pull a bunch of permits that I didn't ask for.
16:20:32 That's not right. And I'd say well you know you're right. What is charging law says you only charge for the requested records. But then I talked to the guys in the state agency and they said, well, it's easier to just pull the whole set of permits and
16:20:45 everything, because otherwise we have to spend the time to sort through it all. And then you know we might give him a couple duplicates he already had a couple things he didn't ask for, but it's easier to just give him everything.
16:20:54 And it's actually quicker and cheaper. So we want to give them all of it. Now they ended up resolving that issue, but things like that. I mean, it's very difficult because you can see both sides, you know you shouldn't be charged for something you don't
16:21:05 want. On the other hand, sometimes it's quicker and faster and cheaper to give you more than what you asked for. I mean, so we get that.
16:21:15 I've had people ask for things, and they say I wanted in original native format, and that native format is something that can only be read with a proprietary computer program that was custom designed for an agency, and the agency has to say well I'll
16:21:29 give it to you but you're not gonna be able to do anything with it.
16:21:50 You have a lot of different issues and as technology expands we keep finding more and more issues. I would note another thing and this I know we're talking records, just a straight a little bit into the meeting side of things in Virginia for a public
16:21:47 meeting occurs. Whenever people get together, if they're members of the public body, discussing the public business to the public body and there's three or more than present or a quorum.
16:21:57 So what I've had to tell people is okay the town council wants to edit a new town policy using Google Docs or Google sheets or something like that, where it allows multiple council members into the document at the exact time.
16:22:10 Okay, you can do that but make sure you don't have three or more they're actually talking about the document in the document, because that would be a meeting.
16:22:18 Same thing with social media is huge and advocates both the records and the meeting side of it because you can get three or more people communicating and real time about any issue they want to.
16:22:28 So, those are some of the things we see just on a regular basis.
16:22:33 Yeah, I totally agree with all that Megan Allen said they touched on a lot of different interesting points I maybe take it in a slightly different direction and talk about media and historical access to historical
16:22:53 records. I just this afternoon, got saw an email, someone asking us what does accessibility really mean when you're talking about record retention schedules and being able to provide public access and it's it's it's an interesting question.
16:23:15 I know, I certainly know accessibility when I see it or when I, when, when you can't see something I've had a very recently, a, an agency wanted to transfer for permanent retention, a bunch of doesn't matter what the records were but it was on, they were
16:23:35 on DVDs that as Alan kind of alluded to, they were generated in a proprietary application, and they weren't encrypted and the agency. And not only did they say, we, we won't give you the encryption key, we can, because we it's, it's a proprietary software
16:23:58 and we don't own that encryption key well what that is an absolute no value to me as an archivist if there's just no hope of ever really being able to, In a DVD is it to my, in my opinion, a failure.
16:24:18 Failing media type that's not going to last forever I'll just give you one other example that came up.
16:24:25 And I guess it was couple years ago where someone requested a copy of a verbatim transcript of a particular proceeding.
16:24:34 And it happened to be on a reel to reel tape.
16:24:39 So, the long and short of it is this individual paid $2,000, to have this reel to reel tape digitized. But as it turned out, each of the microphones, were recording on a different track track of of the reel to reel tape, and she couldn't put Humpty Dumpty
16:25:06 back together again so the conversation the flow of the conversation just could not be really followed to this gentleman's legal standard that he really wanted to apply so accessibility and media, I think, are very important issues of not just, it really
16:25:31 for historic records and I'll echo.
16:25:36 Another thing that Allen had mentioned that I have seen where agencies, even if they have something that electronic format would much prefer to print out 1000 pages and hand that over for what, why, I can only speculate but seems to me if you can provide
16:25:54 it electronically that's how you should.
16:25:59 And they want it in the in the request or wants it electronically. That's how you should give it to them.
16:26:10 So some of this leads to the question and we kind of touched on it already the different costs and fee structures associated with making FOIA requests or public information requests.
16:26:20 So how do different states, deal with those costs or deal with that or. And are there any best practices for estimating for how these estimates are ginned up in the first place.
16:26:38 Um, I did some research on this last fall, and tried to group the states, I do not have the exact numbers with me at the moment.
16:26:52 There were the, the majority of states.
16:26:58 Well, a plurality, I think it was 22 states allow for charges for the actual copies and the physical things needed to make copies you know printers and paper and that kind of thing.
16:27:15 And also those these 22 states also allow for some charges for the labor involved in searching and putting together the records for request. But those 22 states the majority, which was more than anything, any other category.
16:27:33 They also play some sort of limit on the type of labor that could be charged. Maybe they put a cap on how much the rate was. Maybe they put a cap on or a waiver on the first X number of hours is waived, or they would not allow for chart for the time it
16:27:56 takes to redact records or review them for exclusions to review them to say no to you essentially.
16:28:04 So that's the majority, Virginia was in a minority of states of just nine. That allows all of that, and has no limits on the labor. I mean granted, it has to reflect the actual cost and the cost has to be reasonable.
16:28:20 But if you only have one person in the office and that person makes you know whatever $100,000, a year, they can charge their salary salary to run the copy machine.
16:28:35 So, the other ones there are, I think, eight states that don't allow any labor charges at all.
16:28:48 I think, Ohio is the one that comes to mind is the most.
16:28:53 And as far as your question though. What about best practices, I don't know that there is this magic silver bullet because everywhere you squeeze the balloon, it pops out somewhere else, and there are good and bad
16:29:13 consequences for doing both for the public and for government into in adopting any one of these, these ways of doing it.
16:29:24 There will be a study at the foyer council that Alan will conduct this summer, that will look at fees
16:29:37 and follow up with what Megan saying, I would note that in Virginia.
16:29:43 The latest word, I guess on charges is come from the Virginia Supreme Court and American tradition is dude versus, University of Virginia, from 2014 where they upheld a trial court's ruling that you can charge for what they called exclusion review, which
16:29:59 was basically the whole process of sorting through your records to find records that are responsive to the request and then sort out anything that's exempt or prohibited from release, and they said yeah you can charge for all of that.
16:30:11 Because of that, you know, that's where we're seeing the majority of things is in the searching and reviewing the records for exemptions, that's where most of the cost seems to come from these days.
16:30:22 But I would also note.
16:30:24 I had a call just this morning from a town foil officer who said they're working on revising their charging policy, and they asked me if I had any anecdotal aggregate information statistical stuff, you know what are typical policies that kind of thing
16:30:36 so I pointed out you know because Virginia's lawyer says, you may make reasonable charges not to exceed actual cost. It is permissive, it does not have specific waiver provisions.
16:30:47 And so I've seen you know some public bodies say the first 10 pages are free or the first 50 pages Some say the first hour of work or half an hour. Some say the first $20 or $50 or whatever it is, but each sets its own policy so there isn't really a single
16:31:02 standard on that. And I think part of it, you know, in a way, that's good because it's more flexible. But in a way, it's a little trouble so my guest is because, you know, I get calls from requesters who they just want to know in advance, you know, what
16:31:19 should I expect for charges, and the only thing we really have currently in code is again when I mentioned before the requirement to post the rights and responsibilities statement.
16:31:31 Part of that is a statement about charges which is basically quoting from the law itself.
16:31:35 But that's that's about where we stand on that right now.
16:31:43 would agree with.
16:31:44 points made by both Alan and Megan, I think it is.
16:31:52 Sometimes, incredibly difficult to really judge the level of effort that's going to go into responding to any particular FOIA request. The, the example of email is is really good one because it Many states have many state local governments have have moved
16:32:20 to these
16:32:20 my Google Gmail, using Gmail or the Microsoft product and, I think, well Maryland's no exception there I think we've had a gmail for eight or nine years now.
16:32:32 And because of you know we haven't really come to grips with what to do with email, I don't think we've really thrown a whole lot of it away so if you what, when one of the things that I think users really are requesters really need to have a good understanding
16:32:49 is of is, is how to adequately scope their question.
16:32:55 Because if if they don't do that. And they, you know, the agency is kind of forced to to gather up, and then look through to see whether material is responsive and it's not otherwise restricted by law or what other legitimate reason.
16:33:19 You know it could could be really looking at at a huge level of effort that in, in most cases is making pointed out, they, they would will probably have to pay for.
16:33:33 Yeah, if, if I if I could. That raises two issues that I think are relevant to the fees question.
16:33:43 Alan brought up. You know the waiver question about you know it's up to every locality to decide how they're going to implement the feasts portion.
16:33:53 It Some states have a waiver and the federal government have a waiver for public interest or for media, and they and someone says this requests that I'm making is in the public interest or as a matter of public interest and so I request a fee waiver,
16:34:09 and some states do have that Virginia doesn't and my personal preference is to not have one even though I would love for fees to be waived I don't like the idea of an official waiver, having someone in government decide whether or not.
16:34:26 My request was in the person in within the public interest because whoever's making the request has an interest in it that impacts him or her for some reason and I sort of don't feel as comfortable saying that your request is public interest with your
16:34:43 request isn't.
16:34:46 And then to pick up on the point that that Tim just made about the effort involved, I would point out that several states around the country have provisions that they call it different things but I think Illinois calls it vexatious requests in Virginia
16:35:10 when we looked at proposals, they call them, harassment, but they are getting at the notion of people who might may make a request, as a sort of spear, where they're trying to disrupt the government with their burdensome request.
16:35:32 But some of the statutes, go beyond that and just say, you know, we're not even going to question the motives of the request or who makes this voluminous request, we're just going to say you can't make more than X number of requests in a month or a year
16:35:52 or whatever they handled them different than differently and there's not a whole lot of book these provisions around the around the country but but they are out there and they're trying to get at this problem that Tim has, has raised.
16:36:05 Yeah and I wonder if, if, many states also have a provision for waiving fees for the internship.
16:36:17 And you know, most of us I think would say well if, if you're poor and you can't afford it, you probably should be a way for for that but taking from looked at from just a slightly different perspective.
16:36:35 I would say that most of the P we call them pi a request in Maryland, most of the FOIA requests that we get are from prisoners who and everybody wants a copy of everything, and nobody can can afford it and we really just don't have the staff to or the
16:36:59 or the or the paper and printing capabilities to really accommodate every request that would come to us from everyone in the prison population.
16:37:14 We don't have that problem was, two point 3703 sub c is our provision that says incarcerated persons do not have full rights, they retain their constitutional rights rights you know in representation of litigation and everything, but that I know has been
16:37:31 been challenged up to a federal district court as well and they did uphold Virginia's limitation so incarcerated persons while incarcerated. Do not get to make FOIA requests, or at least you don't have to respond to them, they can still ask.
16:37:45 The only thing I would note, generally with waiver.
16:37:47 I've heard of three situations coming from other versions of foil.
16:37:52 One is as Megan mentioned you know media and things in the public interest. The other is what you mentioned indigent persons and the third is for students for something for an educational purpose.
16:38:01 Those are the three I hear about most and I always tell people in training, you know, if someone comes to you and says, I request a waiver for one of those reasons, you're allowed to granted, you know, Virginia Floyd says you may charge it doesn't say
16:38:15 you have to charge. This is another conversation I actually had this morning about charges.
16:38:19 I pointed out that you know, with most of what we do in Virginia with government records. It's very routine stuff, it's not things where we ever think foil and we worry about the specific specifics of procedure or timing you know if someone comes into
16:38:32 a town office and says, Hey, I lost the flyer for the upcoming meeting Can I get another copy of that, they usually say yeah I have a stack of them here habit.
16:38:40 And that's it. Nobody says that's going to be three cents for that piece of paper, or, you know, anything like that but technically that's a FOIA request.
16:38:48 Most of that we just we skip over and most public bodies do not charge for those things. Um, the flip side, that I've also heard, and I'll be honest it's mostly as come from law enforcement, but sometimes others is a concern that they will be accused
16:39:03 of improper discrimination. And so they say you know if we're allowed to charge we're going to charge, everybody and we're going to charge them all the same, because we don't want to be accused of treating anybody differently.
16:39:13 So those are some of the other factors that go into it.
16:39:19 Thank you I we do want to address one of the questions that's come in on that on the q amp a tab is Canada question reads can Maryland resident, make a full year of freedom of information request of a Virginia agency and get a response.
16:39:32 So is there any limitation that you're aware of where the person lives or.
16:39:36 Yes, Virginia for you, specifically grants rights to citizens of Virginia. And this is actually I have someone from Arizona call me this morning about making a request on behalf of someone who was incarcerated in Virginia, and I had to explain to her
16:39:49 that neither of you have Virginia for your rights.
16:39:52 This one was challenged up to the US Supreme Court in the case McBurney vs young about not quite 10 years ago, I think.
16:39:59 And they did uphold Virginia's limitation to citizens of Virginia. I know Megan will tell you more about it and what other states do. Yeah.
16:40:08 They're very few states without limitation, Virginia is one of them and it has been upheld.
16:40:14 I can also tell you from my reading of the case of big part of it was they're saying it's because Virginia taxpayers pay for all these records to be created stored responses and all that.
16:40:25 And I have gotten questions from people, for example, a woman in North Carolina who owned a business in southern Virginia and paid Virginia taxes and employed people in Virginia, but she was in North Carolina citizen, and had her FOIA request denied for
16:40:39 that reason, so she just got one of her employees to make the request for her. And that's the typical workaround is anybody out of state just doesn't get some passionate citizen to make the same request, but technically we do have that limitation.
16:40:57 I'm gonna just stay somewhat silent on this because I can get rolling.
16:41:04 We I'd take up the whole rest of the day talking about this issue.
16:41:10 I'd take up the whole rest of the day talking about this issue. So Tim does Maryland have a similar restriction. I have, I have never, never heard of anyone in you know 35 years I've been around Maryland State.
16:41:31 denying for your request from out of state residents. But, you know, keep in mind, too. I come at this from a slightly different perspective as an archivist that, you know, we want to serve anybody interest who would come to us with, with a records request
16:41:48 and, and, particularly, if you're willing to travel to come and visit us in the search room. We'll go out of our way to help you find what you're looking for.
16:42:03 actually brings me up to one of the other questions we had on the list. How can our archivists and archives better support for your requesters, well I'll start with that i i think that the archivist has unique talents and abilities in terms of describing
16:42:22 appraising cataloging records and seems to me that if all agencies had really good strong records management programs where they had records managers and archivists assist with that, that descriptive and indexing and cataloguing that servicing requests
16:42:44 would be so much easier and managing the records, would be remarkably improved.
16:42:59 So, Alan mentioned the Public Records Act earlier, and when that record when that statute was revised, I think in 2007, maybe, maybe 2008, it did require that every locality and every public body in Virginia name, a records manager.
16:43:25 And then a couple of years later as Alan mentioned, or died actually I don't think you mentioned that yet but Virginia then also required that every public body name a FOIA officer.
16:43:40 Whereas a public records manager I believe has particular duties and responsibilities, how I mean and in how they how they manage their records, the FOIA officer comes with no such responsibilities and that there's no one set way to handle a for your
16:44:02 request just because you're a boy yeah officer.
16:44:05 just because you're a foil officer. But, I'm bringing that up because when those two things, sort of, combined. We got a grant.
16:44:16 Back when grants actually were available, but we got a grant to do a series of seminars and workshops that we titled making your life easier.
16:44:28 And it was geared towards records managers and foi officers on the theory that if your records are in good shape. If you are managing them correctly if you are archiving what needs to be archiving archived and deleting what needs to be deleted.
16:44:44 When you get a FOIA request. Hopefully it's a little easier to fill.
16:44:49 And so when Alan mentioned earlier that he does some training and often has the records managers from the. The Library of Virginia, follow him or received him or something that was, you know, that was the notion.
16:45:04 All along was.
16:45:05 Take care of your records so that you can.
16:45:09 You won't tear your hair out filling in for your request.
16:45:18 I would follow with practical things. And this is an unfortunate reality that Maria my predecessor taught me when I first started, is that a lot of times people calling us with questions and again I had one like this yesterday, our notes earlier today.
16:45:36 Excuse me not yesterday. Yesterday was Sunday.
16:45:38 But it was someone who's brand new. They don't know anything about foil and they want to know, and they want to comply, but they didn't even know there was a Public Records Act or that there are record retention schedules.
16:45:49 I once spoke with a town clerk who had been town clerk for 27 years, and she said what are we here for today. I said, for the training freedom of information.
16:45:59 And she said, What's that I've never heard of it. I mean, that's a rarity, but that that has happened and as Maria Tommy a lot of time the person who's made foil officer is kind of the the newest our lowest person on the totem pole, because nobody wants
16:46:14 wants to do it. A lot of time, on the other hand you get some especially the more sophisticated localities who are larger on a lot of the state agencies, they will have people specifically from a policy office somebody who's trained they'll have their
16:46:27 attorneys involved, they'll, they'll be a lot more up to speed on what the law requires, but it really runs the gamut, it's all over the place and so I would say on the, you know, the archivist public records records management side of things, just outreach
16:46:44 and education, I mean it's it's a lot like what we do on the foyer side. I'm just trying to help the people who are new to understand. Yes, there are requirements out there and you need to know them, you need to follow them.
16:46:55 Because that, unfortunately, all too often is lacking.
16:46:59 The other thing I would know.
16:47:01 I've had a lot of requesters and some public bodies say oh well I don't want to ask the foil officer I want to ask this other person at the agency. Instead, I want an answer directly from them well for you, at least in Virginia, we don't care who answers
16:47:14 the question, on behalf of a public body as long as it gets answered right. And in my experience, and I remember specifically one with a state agency into Well, I'll just say it, it was v dot years ago involved in bridge and tunnel work in the Tidewater
16:47:31 area where it was just it was you know a lot of issues going on, and somebody kept asking the traffic engineers and the bridge engineers, instead of asking the foil officers.
16:47:41 And a lot of those guys, they weren't trained on foil. They didn't know the requirements and so it you know it got messed up. As a result, but when they dealt with the dots actual foil people, they knew what they were doing and they handled things correctly,
16:47:54 you know, things like that so communication and education are just key across the board.
16:48:01 Yeah and, but not to frustrate that point it's a really good point but I guess when you've been around for a while, you kind of see a lot.
16:48:11 I can tell you one frustration that I've had with one particular agency that that they had this huge room, their record room and they called called us down and we had a meeting with a division head and a bunch of the staff and told them what we thought
16:48:32 they really needed to do, from our perspective. And then three or four years later we had the exact same meaning, with an entirely different cast of characters, and then three or four years later, the exact I mean that happens happens three times where
16:48:48 we went to this particular agency to give them advice on how to handle the records in their custody, and each didn't take our advice, and we revisited the, we had the same meaning over and over again so you know that I guess the point being that advocacy
16:49:16 and training and educating, it's, It's a never ending. Never Ending job.
16:49:25 Grant great.
16:49:27 Absolutely, yeah.
16:49:29 By the way in Maryland. We also have both laws that compel agencies to name a Pia officer, and those names are published by the attorney general's office and we also have a law that requires agencies to have a records officer, and the that list is published
16:49:54 by the by my agency in cooperation with the Department of General service records management division. So those are requirements and interestingly I know and some prior conversation there.
16:50:09 They were somebody asked the question can those foil officers remain anonymous. And I guess in some states, they asked to be allowed to remain anonymous in Maryland.
16:50:21 We publish their names on a website.
16:50:27 Yeah, that that is also true in Virginia that you have to have a foil officer, and you have to name them.
16:50:34 I can tell you from experience, not everybody does. I have seen somewhere just says please contact and it says for your office and then a foyer at whatever agency for the email contact but the law does actually say, well, I'll just read it to you.
16:50:48 The name and contact information of a foil officer trained by legal counsel, etc. They also have to submit that to us and we have a list of foil officers on our website.
16:51:00 Compliance is not 100%, I'll just say that, you know, because we rely on other people to comply with it, but I know it's not 100% so we do the best we can with what we've got.
16:51:13 I do want to ask this one up one other question that came in through the question and answer but tab and encourage anyone out there who has a question to let us, please chime in.
16:51:31 The question is are there instances of government offices and agencies claiming attorney client privilege to deny a FOIA request for various records. When the actual contents of the records show that no such restriction may exist on those files release.
16:51:41 In Virginia, there was a case, a few years ago, I am pretty Bergamo, I believe it was versus Virginia Beach, where they asked for attorney building records.
16:51:52 And those were redacted for attorney client privilege and the court went through them and compared the redacted to the unreactive versions, and said that the redactions went too far.
16:52:00 So we do have a Supreme Court opinion to guide people on what is allowed to be withheld as attorney client privilege, what is not. So I would refer people to that opinion.
16:52:10 Well, and I think the, you know, speaking to a broader point on that is that that's that's the, the rub.
16:52:20 Throughout public, you know any public records request.
16:52:25 People use exemptions and people have different interpretations of the law.
16:52:31 And there can be times and and and unfortunately we don't, you know, as a, as requesters we don't know what we don't know if they've withheld something or redacted something using any exemption not just attorney client client but any exemption.
16:52:48 We have to, you know, either take it on faith that really is what the subject matter is, or if we are pretty sure that that's not, then we have to take it to court to have had that resolved.
16:53:05 One of the other questions, we talked about in planning the session was, where does the responsibility for answering FOIA requests lie in different institutions and we started to tease this out a little bit with the, the roles of the records officers
16:53:18 on the fly officers but are there. Are they situated in certain departments that have maybe more power and influence I'm thinking maybe with the lawyers in the general counsel's office or maybe with the IT departments, how does that play out in in your
16:53:34 experiences.
16:53:38 If I could start, I would note, it's up to each have a body to the side and like I said I mean, on some levels on and they say okay newest person, you get the job.
16:53:48 There you go do it, go figure it out, others.
16:53:51 I've seen you know a local government attorney who will be appointed as the officer.
16:53:56 But that's actually a current question that I know some of the local government trainees have been asking and I don't know if they've requested a formal opinion from the bar yet.
16:54:06 But the question is whether they can be the foil officer. As a matter of legal ethics and professionalism, because if they are the foil officer and a dispute arises, they become a material witness, or a fact witness to the events, and therefore cannot
16:54:20 represent their own public body in a proceeding against it. If they are also the foil officer so that's a question that you know we don't have a binding answer to.
16:54:31 But we're looking at that but otherwise I'd say you know it really varies a lot from very experienced high level people doing the job to very low level brand new people and each public body decides for itself, who they will appoint.
16:54:46 And I would add that I think it also really depends.
16:55:00 So it's not a zoom call until somebody freezes.
16:55:22 We can wait for him to get back.
16:55:33 If not, I'll just ask.
16:55:36 Alan, Megan Another question I guess Tim will reconnect.
16:55:42 So what what problems or issues do for your requesters typically face or institutions face when answering for it so what are the what are the kinds of things that come up, come to mind.
16:55:53 The challenges people have or challenges that the institutions and agencies have.
16:56:03 Do you want to tackle that.
16:56:05 Well, how about I'll start with.
16:56:12 First of all, there are, I would just point out that there are stereotypes out there.
16:56:18 There are stereotypes of the government worker who wants to know, who are you, what do you want to do with this why, why do you want this you're going to, you know, you're just trying to stir up trouble.
16:56:33 And then there's the stereotype of the nosy neighbor the gadfly the pain in the whatever request or who's just trying to bring the government to its knees, and they both exist, those stereotypes are there for a reason.
16:56:53 Luckily, I think, you know, overwhelmingly they everything's more in the middle, and that they're very specific issues that are very specific to a particular jurisdiction or public body, as well as to a specific request.
16:57:14 You know, sometimes it just the thing that that one person is asking for just becomes very problematic whereas another person could go into the exact same office and ask for something different and get it handed over, without any, you know, without batting
16:57:30 an eye, so it really can get, you know, depend on the request as much as who's the people and what the office is
16:57:44 or, I don't know what my grammar was there sorry.
16:57:50 Yeah, I would.
16:57:53 I mean other than just questions of interpretation as Megan said some people read an exemption to be broader than other people do. But other than those things I mean, I would just hark back to what we were talking before about searching and charges.
16:58:05 You You're a lot from the government side about oh my god this request is so broad it's going to take forever I need to get my job done. I don't have time for this.
16:58:14 And you hear from the other side well if I make it too narrow they're not going to give me everything because I know they're hiding something. I mean those stereotypes also play out and they're sometimes true not always most people just want to get their
16:58:25 jobs done most people asking for public records they're not doing it to harass governments because they want to know what's going on.
16:58:31 I have encountered a few people who are trying to harass government and a few people in government side who are just stonewalling. I mean, it does happen but it's it's actually pretty rare it's not the norm.
16:58:44 But yeah, I mean, again as Megan said earlier the explosion of email. And I think also the ease of retention of email. I use this example in training when I learned to type back in the 80s, I had a mechanical typewriter that my mother had for years and
16:59:01 years and I had to individually you know type everything out if I wanted to make a correction. I had to turn the cylinder use white out blow on it and everything, and you would not use even think of using that for just sending a note to somebody, you
16:59:14 would never do that. I mean, but now with smartphones computers and laptops are everybody shooting off texts and emails all the time. And so we see things that you know used to be, you would go down and have conversation, or you pick up the phone and
16:59:27 call somebody and they're just wouldn't be a record. Now there are records and so you've got this huge explosion and that's increasing costs search time, effort for everybody and I think it's also for the archive side of thing, you know, and this comes
16:59:41 into the idea, I get this a lot of, Okay, well, what about former members of a board or a council and their emails. What if I want to know about an event that happened five years ago and the board membership changed, and they didn't turn their emails
16:59:54 over to staff and so the board continues, but those emails are gone, because those people are no longer subject before they're not public officials or employees anymore.
17:00:04 You know that's one of the things that comes up as well.
17:00:25 Okay, I've got some one of the other questions that has come in, and it's related to a question we we've kind of started talking about what type, what types of events, including the unite the right rally have increased the number of for your request or.
17:00:33 Can you comment on the relevance of that event to the.
17:00:38 Did you see an increase in request because of that or anything you'd like to add, there
17:00:46 we go first.
17:00:49 Sure, but it happens with every event, anything big controversial you're going to see more requests, with that particular event, lot of requests.
17:01:00 And coming from a lot of different people what some people may not realize is the organizer of the event Mr Kessler is a full user, and I mean he's called me and he emailed me a few times before the questions.
17:01:13 He has also brought for the suits against the city.
17:01:18 I know we discussed a little bit of preliminary of that he sued I believe the city of Charlottesville, in general District Court, and he did not win on all those points but he did win on them inadvertently not giving him an email and so he got his court
17:01:32 costs awarded to him. And that's something that's you know matter of public record if you look up his case, the daily progress has several articles on it.
17:01:42 I did not see a reported court decision on that, but you know, things like that. I mean, the Virginia Tech shooting, there were a ton of FOIA requests.
17:01:51 You know, I believe there may have been resolved in litigation on some of that stuff, where we see for requests like anytime there's any controversial event.
17:01:59 So, this one is not unusual in that sense.
17:02:03 But yeah, there's there's always an increase in a request with something like that.
17:02:10 Yeah, everything that Alan said is, is certainly true, I think if I were to say that there was anything different about the unite the right is that it really seems to have torn the city apart, as we've already heard from you know, many, many other socially
17:02:32 and society, relevant ways.
17:02:36 The city council has been in turmoil. For the past three years, as they try to figure out this balance of being responsive to the, to the public. That has demanded racial justice, while also protecting the government from having to reveal, you know, advice
17:03:04 of their counsel or there's, you know security plans and the tension between these various factions, both, you know, within the city are being reflected in the city council and the people who are attending meetings and the people who are making requests
17:03:25 jH Alan mentioned Jason Kessler the organizer of the unite the right, and I have been contacted by him as well and I've been contacted and sure Allen has to buy lots of people who would be considered.
17:03:42 You know progressives or people who, you know, vehemently opposed Mr Kessler, and they're asking for records too so that might be a little bit different when you had like the Virginia Tech shooting you sort of had everybody will just wanted to know why.
17:03:56 what happened and why this one you see people who are on different sides of something and so you're just, you know, I don't know that the volume is any different than any other really big event, but the direction that they're coming from.
17:04:18 I think maybe a little bit different.
17:04:20 Yeah, I would also just add. I've also been contacted by people at the city.
17:04:26 Yeah, we're, I think now it's one of their former police chiefs, shortly after that and wider had to kind of shut up on it because I think that went into litigation over what is a specific tactical plan, what does the exemption for those cover things
17:04:39 like that so there's, there's a lot of details there as well but millions right that it has been one that you're seeing all sides and everybody wants to use for you.
17:04:49 It has been one that you're seeing all sides and everybody wants to use voice. To find out more information, regardless of their personal perspective, and that I would just emphasize that that's something that I've always found interesting over the years
17:04:58 is. Some people think boy is a liberal law, or another thing it's conservative law, it's not, it's an apolitical law, and everybody with an interest will use it regardless of what their perspective is.
17:05:15 So welcome back Kim that actually was one of the questions we had how, how is fully of both bipartisan and nonpartisan.
17:05:26 So, well, you know, I will take that on, because I'm doing a talk about this on Thursday.
17:05:33 And also because I am a, you know I am a registered lobbyist in the Virginia General Assembly, and if it were as easy as just saying the democrats are pro and or the conservatives are pro mean republicans are pro and the other side isn't.
17:05:51 You know that would give me something to build on. Like, I know which legislators I need to go talk to.
17:05:59 But it's not it.
17:06:00 It is, as I it's kind of whoever is in power, or whoever's ox is being gored, I guess, is, is usually is how it plays out and so we've had governors of both political stripes that have done things that I'd like to knock them over the head with.
17:06:22 And we've had champions on both sides of the aisle.
17:06:26 Move legislation forward that really helped the public, so I have gotten criticized frequently by both sides right now I'm being criticized by the democrats because I've been very critical of the governor's response to a, an issue that's going on here
17:06:47 with the parole board.
17:06:49 But three years ago I was being criticized by the republicans because I issued a report that said that they were not doing a very good job of recording their votes on legislation so I guess that kind of, I take that I do that as a takeaway that I guess
17:07:07 I'm doing my job correctly if I'm having both of them.
17:07:11 Question me.
17:07:18 Yeah, I'm going to beg off here, so I am politically neutral and professionally must remain so. So, I will agree that you know as I said it's an a political issue which makes my job easier as legislative staff and that, You know, I'm here to say what
17:07:33 say what the law says and help people comply with the law. And if the General Assembly changes the law, then I'm going to change what my advice is, because I'm following their direction.
17:07:44 That's right. And I think, you know, bits, calling balls and strikes as much as possible and I think, you know, Alan takes the same approach, as I do to win, doesn't matter who's asking us either.
17:07:58 I know that sometimes you know if a citizen or reporter asked me a question I know they want me to say the those stinking government officials, they are not you know they're treating you bad but if I think that they have applied the law correctly, that's
17:08:13 what I'm going with and, you know, that's it, we wouldn't be helping anyone if we took a either ideological approach to the statute or a, you know, took sides and who was who was right, it was wrong.
17:08:37 So it brings up another question in should archives and archival institutions be involved in foil legislation is being put together or what is the role or potential role for archives and archivist to be involved in crafting the statute or when the statute
17:08:54 is being amended.
17:09:03 I will throw out as I mentioned earlier, the librarian of Virginia is a member of before Council. So we do get her input on any matters that are brought before the council.
17:09:13 And I do think it's important.
17:09:16 You know, there are some issues that, not necessarily I mean since well some of them they've sought legislative solutions but things like, I'll give a specific example Governor's papers are turned over to the Library of Virginia.
17:09:30 At the end of governors term, and then they have to go through and process them. And I know they had a large backlog, just because of staff cuts in earth and they hadn't gotten through them as quickly as they wanted to, but that's something where you
17:09:41 can see, you know, the archives role in processing the records storing them maintaining them also affects people's access to them. At the same time, so I mean they definitely do have a role to play in that,
17:09:57 you know, I'd say that we're fortunate that to enjoy a really good working relationship with RPI a sportsman in the attorney general's office but again you know we look at things from a slightly different perspective.
17:10:13 In that we're all about the Karen preservation of records that have already been turned to have permanent value and we're all about access so I think we can provide some good advice as I mentioned earlier about having sound records management practices
17:10:29 and in place. But, and I'll just echo, something about the governor's papers you know people don't really realize the enormous level of effort that goes into processing collections, and many collections that come through and archives, come to us on unprocessed
17:10:51 and we're in engaged in a years long it probably would take 2530 years to finish processing, all of probate.
17:11:02 And we're going all the way back to the founding of the colony with this collection and, you know, flattening folder in scanning, but it's going to take a generation to get that project done, and with Governor's papers.
17:11:20 It's really complicated in that there are a lot of potential exemptions that apply I'll just give you one kind of real world example, you know, you would think that correspondence to a governor letters coming to the governor might be a really innocuous
17:11:37 series and you know they should be opened up right away but.
17:11:44 But you know what, if you have a person who writes to the governor complaining about the, the, she had a he or she had a complaint with the insurance division because have a medical condition and the insurance company didn't pay and the commissioner inside
17:12:00 side with, you know, there and you know I talked to my lawyer and he said this I've nothing. Well just that simple example there you've got attorney client privilege you got hit but you got all kinds of things that may come into play in terms of restriction
17:12:24 so governors papers are always very complicated. So one of the other questions that have that come in to the chat, how would each of you recommend educating the public about Floyd without attracting overwhelming requests.
17:12:40 I personally don't think there's nearly enough in our education system, addressing civil society issues and and history and governance and, you know, I think it really starts there and
17:13:00 you know maybe run out of hours in the day we're all focused on STEM and things of that nature but in civil society is important to.
17:13:13 Yeah, I would say just I would note I mean, we've always considered education to be pretty much our primary mission at the foi Council, and while most of the inquiries I get are from government citizens are a close second and media is a distant third
17:13:28 but I think that's just because there's such a small percentage of the population overall.
17:13:33 I think that's just because there's such a small percentage of the population overall. But I mean things, you know will go just about anywhere where somebody wants us to do a presentation, whether it's a government function, citizens group.
17:13:42 We also do for some of the schools I've taught at let's see, Norfolk State, Virginia State VCU couple of the community. Some of the paralegal programs guest lecture that the University of Richmond, you know, different places.
17:13:59 And I don't think we're been asked to do one for you know the high school or lower level K through 12 or anything, but I'm sure we would, if we were asked to do it but mostly it's, you know, colleges government folks, that kind of thing.
17:14:13 With our online training, we've been ramping that up a lot over the last few years developing the technology and I know just anecdotally, I mean, we did a program that I did live just before Thanksgiving last year.
17:14:30 And I believe at last count with the replays we've had over 700 people view that one for a two hour training for local government.
17:14:39 I know we've got hundreds of people that have done are fully officers training online.
17:14:44 We've done. I mean, I probably reach a few thousand people a year with the different training programs we do.
17:14:51 That's still probably not enough, you know it'd be nice to reach more people.
17:14:55 But, you know, I'm one person, and have a staff of one and a half, So we're doing the best we can with it.
17:15:04 I'm a staff of one and a half, so we're doing the best we can with it. If anybody has any good ideas for more outreach, I'd be happy to hear them. Oh and I will say I know, Megan had to step away. She does a lot of outreach programs as well a lot of trainings.
17:15:14 Similar as she mentioned before, so they did a nice serious with records management for a couple years ago and she does that and they hold the annual conferences for her Coalition for open government as well.
17:15:27 Yeah, we do and I you know I certainly I invite Alan to do things for us quite frequently.
17:15:38 But we also, you know, I'll go anywhere to I did a. I once did a session for one person.
17:15:46 It wasn't supposed to be that way but there was a hurricane and everyone went home.
17:15:52 For this one first one so she and I are draining.
17:15:56 But yeah, I'll go, I'll go anywhere to that I'm asked and like Alan I do classes, a lot for college journalism programs.
17:16:07 Several you know this year, or just this month, or last month was at VCU James Madison Mary Washington College I've done it in Washington and Lee, Virginia Tech UVA William and Mary, so they don't have a formal program, but I'm also something I've been
17:16:26 doing lately is, you know, not so much for your training but sort of general public access issues for continuing education classes at universities, you know, ones that, that, that seek to reach seniors or retirees I've done that at the University of Richmond
17:16:45 and at William and Mary, talking about how to follow the General Assembly and how to, you know, look how to ask for records and, you know, just kind of several, you know, broader topics about access, and you knows my day is spent just really putting out
17:17:04 as much information as possible on issues and stories that are going on, you know I like to have a very strong social media presence and stuff where I'm just sharing articles or things that, you know, interesting quotes or talking, giving my opinion on
17:17:26 things that may or may not be supported.
17:17:33 No. But, yeah, it that's it's just, it's just constantly trying to let the public know what's out there.
17:17:41 It actually feeds into one of the other questions, how's it best to keep up with recent rulings and changes to Freedom of Information Act issues.
17:17:49 I guess this is for Alan does the council or coalition published newsletters or quarterly reports or pass the ball to Megan because we do not do a regular newsletter.
17:18:01 We do occasionally do issue briefs on important cases. But that's a legislative issue brief it's it's more as our role as legislative attorneys rather than as the foyer counsel.
17:18:11 As the council, you know staff we do try to keep the council itself appraised of recent court decisions that kind of thing.
17:18:19 But I know Megan has a daily newsletter because I read it every day, so I'll pass the ball to her.
17:18:25 Um, yeah so most every weekday I haven't a little digest of case of stories in volume public access
17:18:39 around the state, and then also elsewhere around the country if it's an interesting topic, and social media as well. Allen underscore underestimate the value I think of his annual Legislative Review, which I will always rely on to get to round up all
17:19:01 the bills that will have been passed over the past over that session that amend the Freedom of Information Act or otherwise implicate various areas of have access.
17:19:12 But I have shared the website our website address with the
17:19:20 people who are running this and hopefully I can share it with the audience that you can go there and either sign up for our newsletter or just go there for general information, information and news as best we can.
17:19:43 So maybe this is more of a question director for Tim has has. Have any of you had your foil requested materials end up in a patrons, or researchers own special collection, sort of the full circle.
17:19:59 Somebody request something and then you get a special collection. Oh, sure.
17:20:02 I was special collection coming back to the archives. We do, I mean certainly there's some obvious examples that that people come in and do a lot of genealogy work and then we'll public.
17:20:16 We've, we'd love people to deposit their family histories and and family trees and it's part of our library. So sure, and I mean we.
17:20:30 A lot of our material might wind up in, and more formally published type of material and I would, we have some formal request forms for use of things like different photographic collections and so forth but generally speaking, I think we're mostly interested
17:20:55 in in having the individuals make sure they get a decent citation so people can can work back to that particular item or that collection. And with the proper citation.
17:21:17 So we're in the homestretch the final few minutes are there is there any topic, or any other points that any of you would like to make.
17:21:26 While we wait for any more questions that might come in.
17:21:32 Want to say I think this was a very interesting topic and I guess it might have been Courtney who who came up with it. Really good idea and thank you for inviting me.
17:21:46 I had actually prepared a presentation a year ago, on the issue of how archivists can inform the discussion about you know what to do about Confederate monuments and monuments in general so this is an interesting departure from what I had thought about
17:22:07 putting together.
17:22:09 Back in February March last year.
17:22:18 February March last year. I'll use the moment to give me No, Thank you and a shout out to archivists records managers and and librarians and I apologize if grouping those three together is like somehow like internally, like, Oh no, we're not one of those.
17:22:38 But because they have always, and it's not just in Virginia, but in across the country, organizations like mine that do advocacy work for open government in their states, almost always have a strong presence from one or all three of those groups.
17:23:02 Sometimes puts us, we sometimes get into some scrapes since there is, you know, the, you know, the general tendency of our organization to advocate for openness and then you have some of those, those groups you know saying well well well but we think
17:23:16 of that as you know that that's necessary because if we don't have that input from groups who, you know, really understand both sides of the equation, the impact on the government's work as well as the service that they're providing to the public of public
17:23:34 records provide to the public.
17:23:38 You know, that's, that's last.
17:23:40 We don't have many people who have sort of that same, the same that same level of insight on both sides of the, of the transaction so thank you for your support and actually our Vice President is the IT manager for the library or Virginia so.
17:24:01 So I guess I'm on a personal note, my wife is a librarian. So, so I've got that well she or I should say she she was a librarian she is now a competitive intelligence, business, something researcher for a law firm it's extremely specialized version of
17:24:18 a librarian.
17:24:21 But, so I love a library, there's that. But no, um, I would say, you know, if I was to conclude a general thing. I would actually own what I'm going to do I would read from the Freedom of Information Act because we have a couple of really good things
17:24:35 in the very beginning of it. I'm just on general policy where it says and just this one sentence. Always sticks with me, the affairs of government are not intended to be conducted in an atmosphere of secrecy sense at all times the public has to be the
17:24:50 beneficiary of any action taken at any level of government. And I always try to remind people, you know I try to mention that usually the beginning of any presentation I do but it's also a good place to end the presentation.
17:25:02 Just to remind them, you know, the whole point of foyer is we're doing the people's business and they get to know what's being done in their name.
17:25:14 Well said everyone there was, I think, I saw something pop up. Oh, dude. Do you think it's a profession, we should be more data driven so response rates and the amount of work that has changed in the last 10 years with the amount of electronic records
17:25:34 to be reviewed, so I guess change at has, and we kind of hit on this at the beginning of the world the, the switch or transition to electronic records, what is that is that an impact
17:25:52 that impacted making a request.
17:25:57 Yeah, I mean, I'll just say that again. I mean, it definitely has.
17:26:03 And I think a big part of it is also that you know with FOIA requests, I'm thinking now, as I mentioned, my wife does a lot of, you know, competitive business intelligence research and stuff, so she's all about data sets and processing data and rearranging
17:26:17 in figuring out different ways to bring it in, put it back out, you know for different purposes. And you can't really do that necessarily with a lot I mean with some things you know statistical information aggregate information you can, but when you're
17:26:32 reviewing a person's email. You know, sometimes you just have to read it line by line, and there's no other way around it.
17:26:39 And, you know, other than people practicing good records management, which includes deleting the stuff they don't need as well as keeping the stuff that they do.
17:26:48 Yeah, I mean, that's all we can really say it's good record records management will help a lot with processing for your requests.
17:26:58 So the number.